How do you advance in a workplace that wasn’t created for you? This is a conundrum many Black women face every day. Bestselling author and CEO of The Memo LLC, Minda Harts encourages us to flip the question by asking ourselves, “How do we create workplaces that work for them ... Black women, Indigenous women, and women of colour … and make their talents, their ideas, their ambitions and leadership abilities part of our organization’s overall success?”
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Charlene Theodore:
Hello, and welcome to the Work that Works Podcasts. I'm your host, Charlene Theodore. Before I begin, I want to acknowledge that I'm recording this episode from the Dish With One Spoon Territory. I'm grateful to the original owners for taking care of this land, and I recognize the trees that governance. Knowing that our listeners span the country and are tuning in from other areas with their own treaties and unceded territories, I encourage you to continue learning more about the indigenous history in your community. It is important history and a story that continues.
Dawn Marchand:
At Lawyer's Financial, your satisfaction is our success. It's not that money doesn't matter, financial it's right there in our name. But we're not for profit, and that gives us the freedom to give you break even pricing on insurance and investment solutions and exclusive rates on home, auto, life and disability insurance, just to name a few. At Lawyer's Financial, we focus on you, so you can focus on your family, your firm, and your future. And that sounds like success by any measure.
Charlene Theodore:
How do you move forward in a workplace that wasn't created for you? That this is a conundrum, so many working women of color must still contend with, is one of the reasons this podcast exists. It's time for us to ask the question, how do we create workplaces that work for them and make their talents, their ideas, their ambitions, and their leadership abilities part of our organization's overall success. I'm OBA President, Charlene Theodore, and this is the Work that Works Podcast. My guest today is Minda Harts, CEO of The Memo LLC, a career development platform that helps women of color advance in the workplace.
Charlene Theodore:
She is also the best-selling author of The Memo, What Women of Color Need To Know To Secure A Seat At The Table. A book that inspires and offers practical solutions in equal measure, making it an indispensable guide to advancement for Legions of Leaders, myself included. Minda's resume doesn't stop there. She's an Adjunct Assistant Professor at NYU Wagner and insightful TEDx speaker, a podcast host, a career colonists and all around thought leader. Minda is a much sought-after advisor on how to address the inequalities embedded in workplaces to create diverse and inclusive spaces where women of color can thrive, not just survive.
Charlene Theodore:
In the fight for workplace equality, it's time for employers to lean in to their entire workforce. And I'm excited to have Minda here to tell us how. Welcome Minda.
Minda Harts:
Good to be here, Charlene. Thanks for having me.
Charlene Theodore:
So, when advancing inclusion in the workplace and I suspect that this includes gender equality too. You have cautioned against a one size fits all approach. In your experience, why does that fail to affect the desired outcomes and can adopting an approach like that actually backfire in some ways?
Minda Harts:
I love this question because I do agree that in order to make the workplace work for everybody, we can't have one size fits all solutions because not everybody experiences the workplace the same. And I think when we are creating solutions that are equitable for everyone that allows us to be able to ask each other, what do you need from me to do the best work of your career while you're here? If we're not asking each other those questions or our managers, aren't asking their employees or the people on their team, then they're not creating a workplace that works for everybody.
Minda Harts:
They're creating a workplace that works through their eyes, through their lived experiences. They're only solving problems typically if it affects them, whereas you're making everyone else's experiences non-existent. And so I think that we get into a lot of trouble in the workplace by just assuming that, Oh, women are doing really great here, but let's pull it back. What woman, what women are doing great here? Are white women doing great here or are women of color doing great here, whereas we have to talk about those intersectional lenses, if we really want to get to solutions that last.
Charlene Theodore:
I've often said that we're standing as a society today at the intersection of a traditionally monolithic boardroom culture and younger, more diverse workforce that are really poised to be the leaders of tomorrow. So I know why we need The Memo, I know why it's so important, but why do you think The Memo, a lean in as it's called specifically for women of color. Why do you think it resonated so well at this time?
Minda Harts:
I think that so many women who never saw themselves, or even just people who feel like they're on the margins, didn't see their self in the traditional dominant majority career narrative, meaning that many of the white men and women who get to write business books tend to write business books based off of their experiences. And often because they are the ones that fill the bookstores and the different platforms in which we consume books, we tend to say, okay, well maybe their experience hasn't been my own, but maybe there's something I can take out of it to try to make it fit for some of the pieces of my life that resonate with it.
Minda Harts:
And I think The Memo, was just so timely because we were going through a syndemic and multiple pandemics at once in the last year. And people finally wanted to be able to see themselves in the career narrative. They wanted to be able to say, you know what, I am a woman, yes. Or I am a person of color, yes. But I'm also dealing with racism. I'm also dealing with microaggressions, macroaggressions, and most of the content that we see don't even talk about that, or we're addendums to any statistic. So women and then, Oh yeah, Asterix women of color will pull you in here, too. And so, The Memo really centered the career story around black and Brown women, and then invited those in the dominant culture to read about what our experience is like.
Minda Harts:
And so I think it was just nice for people to be able to read about their experiences and not think that they're crazy or they're making these things up, because sometimes when you're experiencing these inequitable workplaces, you are the only ones. So you don't have anyone to affirm the experiences that you are sitting in each and every day.
Charlene Theodore:
Yeah. It's isolating in several layers, in several ways. You may be the only one in your workplace or a small minority of black women or women of color in your workplace. And also if you look around your field, be it law, business, or otherwise you also don't see any other examples or enough examples of women of color who've been able to break through some of those barriers you need to ask. That's really meaningful, that comment. Since the murder of George Floyd, anyone that works for someone, I have gone through a lot myself included while it's rightful opportunity.
Charlene Theodore:
It's been a very emotional journey for black people across the diaspora. And I know that in terms of the lived experience of black people and black women specifically at work, we didn't start out before the murder of George Floyd in a real center of trust in our institutions, including those that we look for. And so I'm wondering how you think the trust, what the impact of that erosion of trust between workers and employers, how it's affected that relationship, and how employers can go about rebuilding that?
Minda Harts:
Yeah. I love this question so much, Charlene, because I think that's where we have to start. And whenever I get a chance to talk about it or I'm consulting with the client, I said, "We first have to start with trust." Even though you're asking your black and Brown employees, you don't tell us what's going on, have you had these experiences? Be honest with us. Oftentimes we haven't experienced a psychologically safe environment where we feel comfortable saying what our experiences have been, if they've been negative, because we've seen backlash or we've heard of backlash when we have been honest.
Minda Harts:
And so just because you're asking the question and nobody's telling you anything doesn't mean it's not happening here. It just means that you haven't created that trust and where those employees feel like they can honestly, and be vulnerable with their experiences without there being some type of backlash. And so I do believe that, that's where we have to start and even more so, so many companies and organizations and firms in 2020, we're making commitments to racial justice. And many of those employers haven't done anything different than they did when they said it. And so again, that erodes the trust.
Minda Harts:
And so when we talk about it again, those employees are like, you know what? We've heard this before. It's just lip service. And so I'm not going to even participate in these conversations anymore because I've never seen anything that looks real or feels we've moved the needle forward. And I do believe going into 2021 as we're here, leaders, managers, colleagues are going to have to first apologize for dropping the ball. And I think that's the place in which we have to level set to say, we did make some commitments, we didn't do what we were supposed to.
Minda Harts:
I know how this looks, but we're willing to figure out what good looks like and what better looks like and we need you in partnership. In The Memo, I talk about success partners. This is where the rubber meets the road, Charlene. It's like we have to partner together, and it has to be that black and Brown people have to see that demonstrated, have to see that allyship, that commitment to racial justice. We have to see it demonstrated before we're actually ready to also befriend or build the relationship again. So I think that all of the platitudes are great, but if we don't start with the core, which is building trust and that's through being able to see what it looks like, that's the action.
Charlene Theodore:
I just want to turn now to maybe talk to you about a specific kind of practical piece in terms of implementation at work, because you hit upon a really salient point there. The conversations are needed to be heard, apologies are needed to be made, but I've always said that in order to have the trust, instill the trust in your black and otherwise racialized employees, that they can be honest about their experiences at work and how they would like them to be improved. You have to offer several channels of communication. What I see all too often is people relying on a town hall or a survey, not kind of mixing those tools, town halls, surveys, hiring a third party resource to conduct a workplace assessment, small breakfasts, different points of contact to get that feedback.
Charlene Theodore:
With your vast experience in this area, I wonder if you have any feedback or tips on how to actually set up methods of communication that will engender open and honest responses.
Minda Harts:
I think this is where it comes down to relationship building and back to the one size fits all approach. We think that everybody else is having a town hall. We need to have a town hall. Everybody's doing surveys. That must be the thing that we do. And I say yes, but I think we have to ask our employees who identify different than we do, how do you want to be able to express yourself in the workplace? What feels comfortable to you? And that's what I tell my clients, have those conversations in the micro groups. So if you manage a team, maybe you want to do an anonymous survey or feedback where people can say, this is how I feel comfortable.
Minda Harts:
This is what feels safe for me to be able to talk and communicate about this. Maybe we're going to start in the employee resource groups or the business resource groups. And then we feel comfortable telling our lead, how we're feeling, and then maybe that lead can then have a conversation with the executive sponsor. I think putting it out on individuals to put themselves out there, is unfair. They didn't create this problem, and so that's where I sit with it.
Charlene Theodore:
Thanks. That's personally validating for me because it's a message I've been trying to get across. And I always caution against the instinct to have these one-on-one conversations between, let's say, for example, a very senior white male partner and incoming summer student, about George Floyd and the pushback I get is, well, we can't ignore them. We have to bring it up. But again, it's really about taking the feedback from your black and otherwise racialized employees and setting up ways where they are comfortable communicating. So I want to just shift to talking a little bit about culture shifts and wider reaching change and some strategies for that.
Charlene Theodore:
What strategies you've recommended to women of color, who aspire to a leadership or management role to advocate for themselves, to gain opportunities, for visibility or their achievements? Is there a kind of a checklist of things that we should be looking at while we do our own work in this time?
Minda Harts:
Yeah. I think also too, the big thing that I'm hearing from a lot of women of color, black women, is that it's hard to build your social capital when you're not in the office, when you don't have some of those organic opportunities that you ones had, but I would also push back and say that, that is true. But I really do feel right now, we actually are poised and positioned to be able to be visible in ways that we weren't visible in the traditional office setting. And so what I mean by that is, now we are in meetings with senior level people that we might not have ever been in the meeting with before. Right now, we all have the opportunity to turn our cameras on, if we feel comfortable, so people can see our faces. We get to chime in, in the chat on an important topic and be able to add our ideas too.
Minda Harts:
And so I think we have to leverage those things to our benefit as one. So I think that we do have more power than we think. The other part two is still keep building relationships. So just like you would maybe ask someone for coffee in the workplace or you'd see them in the break room, everyone's home. And I feel like most senior leaders are more apt to say yes to certain things now than maybe they were before. And so this is an opportunity for women of color to say, Oh, I know that my manager's manager is available X, Y, and Z time periods. Let me ask if they're available for a 15 minute conversation, because I aspire to be in their role in a couple of years, and I'd love to ask them some questions.
Minda Harts:
I think that we just have to continue to be strategic about how we're building, even though the workplace has changed, our goals have not changed or maybe some of them have. But our dreams, our aspirations are still important and they still can move forward because there are people who are still getting promoted during quarantine. There are people who still getting wages and that should be you. We get to really redefine what success means for us. The last thing we'll say to Charlene is I believe that senior leaders are looking for new leaders that can be able to adapt and who can lead in 21st century and beyond.
Minda Harts:
And I believe that women of color are part of that new generation of leaders. And so if our companies have said that racial justice and we want to increase our management numbers with more people of color, then this is an opportunity for you to throw your hand up and say, actually, this is something I'm interested in. I'd love to talk about how I position myself so that I'm being thought of for these next opportunities. But no one's going to know what we want, if we don't advocate for ourselves or build those networks.
Charlene Theodore:
I love it. I love it. Raise your hand, ladies. Raise your hand.
Minda Harts:
Raise it high.
Charlene Theodore:
[crosstalk 00:15:38]. Yeah, raise it high. So there was a news article that came out last week. They did a survey in corporate Canada and found that in most big companies, there are no black or indigenous women on track for the top jobs. I say that for several reasons, because it's a relevant point, as much as I want people to listen to this podcast, I hope that this section of the podcast becomes obsolete very soon. But there's a question that I have always wanted to ask you since finding about your work and reading The Memo, your book famously discusses, how to secure a seat at the table, whatever that may be to you.
Charlene Theodore:
I want to know on the flip side, what should the people who are leading workplaces now, we know to be a large, a homogenous group, what should they be doing to make that seat available and not just available to make it attractive, attainable and sustainable in terms of retention to their female employees of color?
Minda Harts:
I love this because part of the equation that we can solve is what we do to invest in ourselves, advocacy. But on the other end, there are people who are in positions of power, who also need to activate their courage and also allow themselves to see what leadership could look like broadly, not just through the lens of their own experiences. And what I mean by that is, right now even in the United States, succession planning doesn't really benefit women of color typically. So when somebody leaves a position, they have not been grooming or training or developing a woman of color to step into that role. And even when you see a woman of color in the role, oftentimes they're not replaced with another woman of color.
Minda Harts:
And so I think it's very important that our leadership that we hold them accountable, that they hold themselves accountable for succession planning. What does the room look like right now? You should not be filling that next seat with just any other person that looks like you, you should make sure that you have a diverse slate of candidates and that you're being intentional. If you know that you've never had, well, in the United States, we're about to have three black women as CEOs, but we haven't had one in almost seven years.
Charlene Theodore:
I was trying to do the math. It like, in a minute.
Minda Harts:
Yeah. And think about... It's not that there aren't any black women ready to lead, it's that nobody is investing in their success. Nobody leaning in leadership. And so all those ERGs, all those executive sponsors, you're seeing talent each and every day in your organization. There's no way that you don't have a bench ready to go, that you can interview and develop in that way. And so I do think that it's really incumbent upon leadership to be intentional. And again, back to the building trust, don't tell me that diversity is important and I'm a black woman sitting in your company or a Brown woman or a Latin woman or indigenous woman, and I never see myself. That's disingenuous.
Minda Harts:
And so that's also eroding trust. So if we really want to be thoughtful and intentional and move the needle forward to where it is in moot point, then we're going to have to be intentional about the next steps that management and leadership face. And we can no longer rely on, Oh, they're hard to find. We're out here.
Charlene Theodore:
Been out here, been ready, born ready. This is just such an amazing opportunity to listen and learn from someone who has really been out there since, before we've been tackling all these issues, doing the work, and I think leading in a collaborative way in corporate America to achieve these culture shifts. So that's a good segue to talk about allyship, which is something we talk about a lot in my industry, and I want to know what an effective workplace ally looks like to you? And also how does a workplace effectively kind of systematize or magnify the benefits that good allies and sponsorship, which I think is endemic to being a good ally, magnified those benefits that it brings in kind of put a system in place to kind of make it happen on a day-to-day basis?
Minda Harts:
Actually, I think that we can't have an equitable workplace without allies. We just can't. And I often tell, I'll be speaking somewhere Charlene, and they'll say, well, what about those people that don't want to be allies that keep asking, why are we talking about this? I said, "We need to normalize that this isn't the right workplace for them." Diversity being an ally, being a good colleague should not be an option. You don't get to decide if you're going to be a sponsor for people of color, you don't get to decide that. You need to start identifying who you want to help. And so for me, I often use this analogy, which is a car ride. And if we're all riding in the car together, we may say, okay, if we're driving from New York to Ontario, it's a long ride depending on where you are in New York. We all are riding in the same place to get there.
Minda Harts:
But we experience that car ride differently. If you're driving the car, if you're a passenger in that car, if you've only ever sat in the middle seat. I'm one of three kids, so growing up, I was always in the middle seat. So the experience of my family members were very different than me. And I use that car ride the same way in the workplace. We all might work at the same place, but we experience that workplace very differently, depending on where we are in the car, in the workplace. And so what would it look like for the person that always gets to drive the car? If they were to look back and say, you know what? I know that Minda has been uncomfortable in that middle seat for the last seven years. What do I need to do to make sure that she has the resources to make it to the front seat, to even drive the car in the future.
Minda Harts:
But nobody's asking those questions. They're just driving the car, experiencing great. They're not experiencing racism. They're not experiencing sexism or any other kind of marginalized. And that's what I want people to think about. Where do you sit in the car? If you sit in the car and you're able to help your colleague next to you have a better experience, field the thrive in that ride, not just be able to stretch their legs out a bit. Even to say that I'm uncomfortable, just to be comfortable enough to even tell you that, what are you doing to make sure that everybody is experiencing that car ride better? And that's why allyship is so important. It's not just saying, I know it's bumpy for Minda in that middle seat. No. Now that I'm aware of the bumpiness, it's up to me to activate and figure out how to make it better for her.
Minda Harts:
And we all have the ability to do that in the workplace. And the more that we see that it's not just Tom, because Tom, he's on 10 all the time. I'm not like him, but you're still contributing to the harm in the car, even if it's not as egregious. And I think that it starts with each person, everybody has to take a look at themselves and say, how can I be a better ally? How can I make work better than I found it? And if we all look at it that way, then we make it better for everybody else. But if we're only focused on how we experienced the car ride, then it's not going to work for everybody. So allyship is mandatory, in my opinion.
Charlene Theodore:
I couldn't agree. I love the car analogy. And my apologies to all firstborn children with long legs. They never had to sit in the middle. We didn't know back then what it was like. But what I would say I think to amplify and maybe underscore that point is what I repeatedly say when I'm doing this work and when I'm writing about these experiences is allyship is for everyone. It is not a pet project of a partner or the head of litigation or the lawyer that's in charge of student recruitment.
Charlene Theodore:
If you have the power to hire, fire or even effect the lived experience of people you work with, you have to get, in my opinion, EDI right and you have to get allyship right. And so there's no more time for, as you referred to kind of obfuscating that responsibility. Maybe if your name isn't on the door, but you lead a team of young law students, but if your name isn't on the door, but you're the one in charge of the paralegals. It starts at the top, but it doesn't end there. These principles have to be carried all the way down through the organization and they can't exist in a silo.
Minda Harts:
I absolutely agree. I also want to add that, I think oftentimes people say, well, that's the CEO or that's the chief diversity officer's issue. No, we all have equity advocate in the job description. We all have the ability to do that and to be better in our group. And we all have the ability to speak someone else's name in the room that isn't typically there.
Charlene Theodore:
Minda, we're coming off of Black History Month and like clockwork, there were several high profile. I don't want to call them gaffes because they're more serious than that. High profile incidents of companies within the legal industry and even outside the legal industry that use their Black History Month campaigns to, I guess, maybe inadvertently to them further a message of anti-black racism and not only insulted the black community that hurts a lot of people. Again, as we're talking about that erosion of trust and the common cry that you hear and I've been one of those to make that cry as well as who's at the table, who's at the table, who's at the top. If you had more black people at the table, these things wouldn't happen. The more I do this work, I realize that there is a parallel obligation.
Charlene Theodore:
So one is yes, you need to hire more black people. There are a lot of leaders concerned about a pipeline, but you need to do the outreach and realize that there are senior black executives and lawyers that can add value to your company right now while you work on the pipeline of young women and people of color. But I think that there's an also a parallel obligation that if you are a person in the position of power and you're not black and dealing with issues with anti-black racism, it's kind of the cost of being the boss. The same way that you have that skill in terms of strategic management, whether it's business forecasting, whether you're the top securities guy, if there's a cost to building a business and being responsible for the lived experiences and income of people that work for you. And one of those obligations that come with being a boss is getting EDI right. I would just love to know your thoughts on that.
Minda Harts:
Well, you hit it on the head, Charlene. I think you're the boss for a reason. You have to deal with the good stuff that comes and the harder things that come. And I think that, I wish I had more of an articulate way to say it, but that is what it is. If you are in control, you are in the C-suite, then it is incumbent upon you to look at every area of business, not just the parts of it that you care about, about every single part of it and how it affects your talent. I teach this course at NYU on talent development. I teach a version of executive leaders of that course and I asked the leadership, how much of your workforce do you want to be productive?
Minda Harts:
And they always kind of rolled their eyes like, we want everybody to be productive, Minda. I said, so what are you doing to make sure you're invested in everybody's success. If you're not looking at the investment of everybody in your company, then you're failing the company. And just like you're investing in your management by coming to NYU, you need to invest in reading the books, listening to the podcast, talking to your black and brown colleagues. You need to get right with DEI. That's part of being a 21st century manager. You don't get to opt out on that.
Minda Harts:
So, and that's where I tell them, this is part of your skillset. You need to work that skill just like you would any other things. So I often met with, well, I don't know how to have those conversations. I'm not good at it. Again, you don't get an option, like maybe you shouldn't be managing anymore. Maybe you shouldn't be in leadership. I know it's kind of radical, but we can't give our leaders options to do the humane thing, which is make the workplace work for everybody.
Charlene Theodore:
In your experience, have you been able to spread that message while still stressing the need of the importance to hire people of color? Or is there a sense that if white male and female managers kind of get up to speed and really embrace EDI, that the hiring piece will kind of go to the background?
Minda Harts:
I think when I get a chance to engage with leaders that I try to present in a yes [inaudible 00:28:05]. And it's not one at a time. Just like in 2020, many of our companies and firms and organizations, what we said we would do prior to 2020, we're like, oh, we couldn't maybe do some of those things. That's like five to 10 years off. But Charlene, we saw companies move at work speed in 2020 to get things done. So when it matters, when it's important, we can move the needle very quickly on a dime. And so I want to see that-
Charlene Theodore:
In several areas. Okay, yeah.
Minda Harts:
... In several areas at once, right?
Charlene Theodore:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Minda Harts:
So it's possible. We have the business case for that. We've seen it. We know what it looks like. So let's do that too here. And the other part of it is, it's not just the low hanging fruit of interns or recruiting in that way. It's yes, but back to your point, what about the people who sit in the middle of the organization, those who have been there for a long time, what are you doing to retain and advance the people that are already there? So I get really irritated when I hear that it's a pipeline problem and we can't find anybody. And again, back to the trust because you have black and brown employees sitting in your company and you're sitting here saying that you don't know where they are. So-
Charlene Theodore:
They're on the fifth floor, Bob.
Minda Harts:
They're on the fifth floor, they're on the 10th floor. They're working from home. And that's, again, it's like this isn't a racial issue, this is a humanity issue. And the fact that you're not even thinking about how you're articulating what DEI means to you and you're making comments like that and you have black and brown employees, what does that signal to them? Again, that's signaling that trust like they don't see me. I'm still invisible. Even in this racial pandemic, we got a lot of work to do, but I do believe if we want to, if we choose, we're headed to make the workplace better than it was a year ago, but it's going to take some real work. And this isn't just a 90 minute webinar, this isn't a 60 minute Zoom call, this is every day work. This is forever.
Charlene Theodore:
Absolutely, like many women I found out about The Memo from another black woman. I've given copies to other black women. And it's really just caught like wildfire. It's been out there for a while now. Is there a conversation around workplace equality that's been spurned by The Memo that you predict we won't be having a year from now or two years from now? Is there something that you think that we're kind of getting to see the light at the tunnel in one of the topics that really hit a flashpoint with the arrival of The Memo?
Minda Harts:
I'd like to say that black and brown women are leaders. I think because we hadn't seen it in so many cases that the dominant majority questioned if we could rise to that occasion, but like you said, we've always been ready. We just needed the opportunity. We've been leading in many capacities already without even the title. And so I think that what we won't be talking about, what I hope is that when we say leader that we don't automatically just think white man, that we see a lot of different people because we're seeing it here in the United States that the second in command is a woman of color. We're seeing more CEOs that are women of color. So I think the more that you see us at these tables, we start to redefine what success and leadership looks like. And I'm hopeful that in the coming years that that is the norm.
Charlene Theodore:
Me too, me too. I think we're on our way there. In case I hadn't mentioned it 15 times before on this podcast, I love The Memo. And the only thing I love more than The Memo is the announcement I got a couple of weeks ago that your next book, Right Within is going to be available soon. I've told you before, I think it's the perfect follow-up to The Memo at the perfect time. I think we're all trying to heal from all of the events that have happened, led up to the writing of The Memo, and that have happened since the writing of The Memo. And what it really is to me is a self-help book for women of color to help heal from racial trauma in the workplace and really thrive. And so if The Memo was the first step, Right Within is truly the next step. Can you talk to us a little bit about what racial trauma looks like in the workplace?
Minda Harts:
Thank you so much for just your support and your kind words. They mean so much. Racial trauma is an interesting thing because we talk a lot about trauma, we talk about sexual harassment, we talk about those sorts of things, but we don't put the same weight on racialized trauma in the workplace. So for example, if I spent 15 years in corporate America, every single day, I was racially aggressed in some way. And when you're in a toxic relationship of any sort, even with your workplace that starts to affect who your authentic self is just like any other abuse. And I want us to normalize talking about racial trauma because so many of us have experienced those cuts each and every day, sometimes several times a day and we haven't given ourselves permission to heal.
Minda Harts:
Some of us don't even know that we can heal. And even the stories that I told myself was, oh, this is just what it's going to be like for you as a black woman in the workplace. This is part of it, Minda. So I settled into it, Charlene. And later on, I realized, wow, all of that trauma is really caused me to be a different person in many ways. And I don't think that people realize how much of a cost sometimes an inequitable workplaces for black women because we've been doing it. Many have retired with racial trauma still in their bag.
Minda Harts:
And I think it's important for us to talk about it because if our colleagues understood that it's not just you called me the wrong black woman this week, but you're doing it every day. All of those things are trying to erase who I am in the workplace. And I think it's high time we talk about it, but not only that, how do we get right within with everything we've been dealing with knowing that we deserve to be able to feel good about ourselves and see ourselves in the versions that we need to be.
Charlene Theodore:
100%. When you talk about the healing and women who had retired with it, a little bit of self-disclosure, one of the things that I went through and try to just dealing with the murder of George Floyd coming on the eve of me ascending to the president of the OBA, there was a lot. And one of the things that I think the globalization of the conversation around Black Lives Matter did for me is even myself who has made a career out of advocacy and strategic consultation in terms of EDI issues specifically within the workplace is I thought I was up to speed. This is bad, the workplace, these are the things that make work difficult for me and make the work difficult for black women.
Charlene Theodore:
But I realized that there were so many things that I didn't even recognize. Water doesn't feel wet if you're a fish if you're in it all the time. And that's why I talk so passionately about the need for the book because I think black women and other women of color... I have gone through many of the same things and will recognize the need the same way that we collectively rose with The Memo recognizing being to collectively heal and thrive, find some joy with Right Within. Well, my question for you is why do you think workplace leaders, managers and white men and women because I know they've embraced the memo, why do they need to embrace this book in the same way?
Minda Harts:
Yeah, absolutely. I'm glad that white men and women are reading The Memo and continuing to read it. And I think that this is again, their companion piece. All of the things that you now are aware of, look at how they've contributed to the harm in the workplace. And so again, I think sometimes as white men and women, they understand what racial trauma is, but they don't often know what it looks like, how maybe even they've contributed to it. And so I hope that they will read Right Within and be like, wow, I didn't realize that.
Minda Harts:
Yeah, I've been doing this each and every day, but not only that, how do I engage with a woman of color who has been racially traumatized? Or if I allow Tom to say that thing again to her, how that's a trigger. I know Tom may not mean any harm, but it still caused harm. And so as a manager, I need to make sure that Tom isn't doing that anymore and being aware of how that could affect Minda when it happens again. And so I think that managers, they have the ability to really create the safe space for women of color and black women in the workplace. And I hold them responsible for a lot of the trauma that has been unchecked in the workplace.
Charlene Theodore:
This is another shift in perspective I've had. I lead with empathy, but I've never as a woman of color in the workplace expected empathy or wanted empathy. I have always said, especially when it comes to issues with respect to the over-representation of blacks and indigenous people in the justice system, I have always fought for not everyone that comes before you in a court of law is going to, it's not going to be an afterschool special. There may not have a compelling story, but by rights, we deserve the same treatment without any kind of song and dance that we may have to do to plead for rights that we have in Eylea be in law.
Charlene Theodore:
And the shift I've made is that I need to take some of the empathy that I lead with and it's okay to have some of it for myself in the workplace. And that's largely because I work for associations that are white-led by education association and the OBA that did respond with empathy. After the events of George Floyd, I realized how valuable that was. And so I think how Right Within will help is really helping white men and women who are leaders in the workplace to bring them into our shoes in terms of what our lived experience is like and have empathy from that specific perspective of the impact of anti-black racism. And so for that reason and several others.
Charlene Theodore:
I can't wait to read through the book. We can't wait to share it here with our listeners and our over 16,000 members here in Ontario at the OBA. Yeah, I think the work that you do is transformative and we're all just really happy to have the opportunity to speak with you. Now on a final note. So we're a community of 16,000 lawyers, judges and law academics here in Ontario. And the one thing that we say is our strength is in our community. And I know that we've talked before about the isolation of being a black woman in the workplace, whether there's 10 of you or one of you, there is still a sense of isolation in the broader corporate picture. I know that what you've done very effectively is create a community around The Memo and its goals. Can you let our listeners know if they're looking for community within The Memo, Memo land, how they can find that community?
Minda Harts:
Yeah, thank you for that. I am a firm believer that success is not a solo sport and you need that community, especially for those days when you feel like you don't have one. And one of the ways in which I have built community and I met women like yourselves and others and now we'd become soul sisters in a different way than we have before and through my podcast, Secure The Seat, but then also through newsletters and events. And I just think it's so important for us to have an outlet because again, if you're that one or you're that 20th woman of color, but you may not feel like you're fully supported in some of the spaces you occupy, knowing that you do have a community that's rooting for you where you can let your hair down or put it up, whatever you need to do. But I do believe that how I was even able to make it through 2020 in such a racialized time was because I had community. And I think that as long as we continue to be that for each other, there's nothing that we can't solve and there's nothing that we can't overcome.
Charlene Theodore:
And that is a perfect note to end this conversation on. Although I could talk to you forever, thank you so much for joining us and we're waiting for the book and we wish you well.
Minda Harts:
Me too. Thank you.
Charlene Theodore:
Thank you. I love Minda's car analogy so much. So in looking at the action items she's left us with, let's consider what we can do to make the road trip that is our collective career journey more comfortable for everyone, especially if we're in the driver's seat. Everyone experiences the workplace differently. So there is no one size fits all approach to addressing inequality. Given that, a great place to start is by asking employees, particularly those who identify differently than you, what do you need from leadership so you can do the best work of your career here?
Charlene Theodore:
If you don't get a response, it doesn't mean that you don't have a problem. It just might mean that there's been an erosion of trust. So try different points of entry and different communication methods to engender comfort, confidence and honesty in sharing. Town halls are great, but they can be intimidating. Some of your staff might be more comfortable sharing their experiences in an anonymous survey distributed by a trusted team lead or third party the data from which can be taken higher up the chain is needed. If you're still struggling to gain trust, do some self-reflection, consider whether or not you followed through on earlier promises and public statements that your organization has made that committed you to creating workplaces of equality and inclusion.
Charlene Theodore:
If you haven't followed through on those earlier promises, now's the time to apologize for dropping the ball and more importantly, to reaffirm to do better. Without really seeing that commitment translated into action, people of color won't be eager to partner in efforts to improve the culture. While Minda encourages black women to leverage every opportunity, including the new opportunities that remote work is afforded to build social capital, develop relationships and advocate for themselves in order to secure a spot at the decision-making table. She also advises leadership to make sure that those seats at that table are ready for them.
Charlene Theodore:
Be intentional in your succession planning. Don't just fill the seat occupied by someone leaving the organization with another person who looks just like them. There are undoubtedly highly capable black women, indigenous women and other racialized women in your organization. Are you helping them develop their talents and leadership abilities? We have to look beyond building a pipeline to lifting up those who are already working for us and may already have been leading without the title. Remember that being a good ally is an expectation, not an option. It's in everyone's job description. If you're only looking at your own experience from your vantage point in the front seat without considering and contributing to the comfort of everyone else in the car, you're not being a good co-passenger or a good colleague.
Charlene Theodore:
If you're a workplace leader who's failing to invest in everyone in your company, you are failing your company, period. You don't have the option of saying you're not good or not comfortable with difficult conversations or the ongoing work of fostering, meaningful equality, diversity and inclusion in your organization. Racialized trauma that comes from the daily cuts women of color experience, the macro and microaggressions, the marginalization, the eraser has a profound effect on sense of self and workplace interaction. White allies should try and understand what it looks like and how they and others contribute to it in the workplace so they can better engage with a woman of color who has experienced it.
Charlene Theodore:
And finally, black women are not merely a footnote in the workplace narrative. They are key players and any organization that removes obstacles and offers them opportunities to shine will be all the more powerful for it. As Minda reminds us, workplace leaders know they can move the needle very quickly when it matters. What we've all done in moving the dial on a dime in areas of innovation and service during the COVID crisis is more than impressive. Well, there's another crisis going on in our workplaces, the exclusion of black women and other women of color. I know we can certainly act justice quickly when it comes to real solutions for equality, diversity and inclusion something just as critical to our profession's long-term sustainability and success. We'd love to hear from you. Rate and review and follow a link in the episode description for additional resources.