When the settings and sectors lawyers operate within are infected by the same systemic problems that afflict the clients and communities they serve, their ability to maintain public trust and eradicate barriers is diminished. Amid a global reckoning on anti-Black racism, lawyer and renowned racial justice advocate Anthony Morgan lays out what lawyers can do in their workplaces to serve not only as powerful examples of equality and inclusion but effective agents of substantive change.
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A Starter Kit for Moving Towards Substantive EDI Efforts
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Charlene Theodore:
Hello, and welcome to the Work that Works Podcast. I'm your host, Charlene Theodore. Before I begin, I want to acknowledge that I'm recording this episode from the Dish With One Spoon Territory. I'm grateful to the original owners for taking care of this land, and I recognize the treaties that govern it.
Knowing that our listeners span the country and are tuning in from other areas with their own treaties and unceded territories, I encourage you to continue learning more about the indigenous history in your community. It is important history and a story that continues.
Dawn Marchand:
At Lawyers Financial, your satisfaction is our success. It's not that money doesn't matter. Financial, it's right there in our name. But we're not-for-profit, and that gives us the freedom to give you break-even pricing on insurance and investment solutions and exclusive rates on home, auto, life and disability insurance, just to name a few. At Lawyers Financial, we focus on you so you can focus on your family, your firm, and your future. And that sounds like success by any measure.
Charlene Theodore:
The privilege we're afforded as lawyers to fight injustice and contribute to a more equitable society is incredibly motivating and rewarding. But when the professional settings and justice sector we operate within are infected by the same systemic problems that afflict the clients and communities we serve, our power to earn public trust and eradicate barriers is diminished. Amid a global reckoning on Anti-black racism, what can lawyers do in our own workplaces to serve not only as powerful examples of equality and inclusion, but effective agents of sweeping change? I'm OBA president, Charlene Theodore, and this is the Work that Works Podcast.
Charlene Theodore:
Our guest today is a true thought leader, driving conversations concerning race, racism, and multiculturalism that have only become more critical over the past year. A lawyer who happens to be one of Canada's most effectual and influential racial justice advocates, Anthony Morgan calls for substance over symbols. As manager of the City of Toronto's Confronting Anti-Black Racism Unit, he is responsible for implementing a plan that will make municipal services, spaces and policies fully inclusive and accessible to Black Torontonians, both in intent and in practice. As you're about to find out, he is a person of substance and action with unique insight into effecting equitable and inclusive organizations in systems and how that impacts the communities that they serve. I'm also proud to call him a friend.
Welcome Anthony. Thanks so much for joining me today.
Anthony Morgan:
Thanks so much for having me.
Charlene Theodore:
So with this podcast, I'm focusing on workplace change in the legal profession. So before we get into the advocacy that you've been leading, I wonder if you could share, based on your own experience practicing law, what you believe isn't working in today's workplaces, legal workplaces or otherwise.
Anthony Morgan:
Sure. Well, first and foremost I want to say, and Charlene, of course as a friend, it's great to connect with you on this podcast, but also recognizing and honoring you as the president of OBA, it's wonderful to be able to connect with you in this capacity and have this conversation. I think what is not working, you spoke to it to a degree in the introduction where there tends to be an overemphasis on the symbolic rather than the substantive change within our organizations. And so for instance, you might have legal organizations or firms or spaces where there are legal professionals operating where there can be a statement of solidarity or recognition or support as it relates to addressing Anti-black racism or even going as far as Black Lives Matter, or even going further still and talking about the calls for defunding the police. But that is more of, again, a symbolic gesture. Where organizations falter is where they confuse or conflate the symbolic with the substantive.
Anthony Morgan:
And so there might be an articulation of a commitment, of a generally expressed commitment to change, but then you don't see the follow through that would allow those changes to manifest within the organization and who the organization serves or the firm serves. And so we don't get to critical conversations about who's in leadership of this organization and how do we change the face of the leadership of the organization? What do our policies look like? Are our policies conducive to maintaining an environment that doesn't just talk about racialized people or people who are "diverse" or equity, but very specifically, does it allow for substantive, meaningful conversations around Anti-black racism, which is a very particular and unique phenomenon and an expression of injustice and disadvantage that runs through all kinds oforganizations.
Anthony Morgan:
And so I think what's not working is, again, that conflation and confusion of the symbolic or the substantive where the substantive is really about changing your people, your policies, your practices and ultimately being focused on changing your outcomes, the outcomes that you're producing. Who's being promoted, hired, recruited, supported to advance in the organization. What is the experience of racialized people when they do interact with your organization and specifically Black people, are you even asking those questions? Are you collecting data as an organization to help you understand how to benchmark change and then advance change year over year? So let's say when those pieces are missing, unfortunately, organizations set themselves up for failure.
Charlene Theodore:
Yeah, I agree completely. I think the thing that I've noticed, and the pain point, I guess, and the thing that frustrates me is seemingly well-intentioned people attend conferences, attend trainings, which I speak at a lot of the time and I know you do as well. And I think where I'm left feeling like we could be doing more is well when this conference is over, when this training is over, finish the thought. What are you going to go back to your desk and do now? It's kind of the core of my mandate as a workplace lawyer and it's why we created the podcast. So it's not only to have the conversations, people in all areas of law, inside and outside of law, who are making a difference and actually have really, are on this specific point, look, we've implemented this change, which is why I think the resources that come out after the podcast, the actual templates and resources, the take home or take to work resources that people can use are so important because the point is the conversation is supposed to continue beyond the education into action.
Charlene Theodore:
So as a workplace lawyer that is invested in working with these issues within all of our institutions, I'm particularly drawn to the fact that you've advocated for modernized employment equity legislation. And I know I've heard you say, if we really want to make Black lives matter, we have to make Black jobs matter too. For our listeners, Anthony, could you just chat a little bit about how legislation can advance that priority? What are the disparities that need to be addressed and what strategies have to go into addressing them from the legislative perspective?
Anthony Morgan:
Of course. So legislation is certainly helpful, it is necessary, but of course not sufficient. But it certainly sets the benchmark, it creates obligations and commitments for organizations and then where there's good legislation they're also embedded within it measures for accountability. What we find within our organization is that they overwhelmingly by and large, it's uncomfortable to say, but they can get away with being Anti-black. Even if it's unintentional. They don't have a measure standard by which they have to hold themselves as it relates to the representativeness of their organization. And so it gives the impression that when it comes to addressing say Anti-black racism very specifically that it's more of a moral commitment. It's more of a matter of good character rather than an obligation that would support the organization to fulfill its requirements under the Ontario Human Rights Code or the respective provincial human rights code or the Federal Canadian Human Rights Act, or if you're in government, the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
Anthony Morgan:
And so legislation as we did have within Ontario up until about 1995 is really important. So we did have an employment equity act within the province of Ontario. Part of my work and advocacy has been to help us get back there and see our provincial government adopt a stronger, more robust employment equity act that doesn't just talk about visible minorities, but it actually speaks very specifically on the base of the data. So the different communities that experience some of the highest rates of disadvantage and disparity, that is Black people by and large, when we look at the data. And so legislation can help us do that so long as it is embedded with that framework for accountability.
Anthony Morgan:
And then the strategy that follows that it puts organizations in a place where they can set goals, they can set aims, they can set direction. Strategic plans can be developed to get from point A to point B as opposed to what seem, and unfortunately for many Black workers are experiences, the endless cycle of conversations about things that need to be done or acknowledgements and recognitions. But again, it not turning into meaningful substantive change. And so legislation can help us get to a point where again, it sets that overarching framework for us. We know that it's an obligation. It is not just a matter of us feeling good or looking as a corporation, but it is a matter of our actual legal obligations that we have to fulfill and more deeply, our human rights obligations as an organization too.
Charlene Theodore:
So I think what people are asking now is, for the people, for the organizations, the workplaces that employ lawyers, what they're asking is we've had trainings, we've done unconscious bias training, we support organizations like [Cable 00:10:28] at their annual gala, we support Black Law Students of Canada. And so we're doing everything we know how to do, and we're not seeing the outcomes, where are the Black applicants? And there are several tools that are needed to actually turn that intention into
an actual measurable workplace culture shift and legislation is, I think just one of those tools. So it's not the only tool, but I think it's very important.
Anthony Morgan:
I agree, it is very important. Even in the absence, and currently we're operating generally within an absence of legislation that would help provide that guidance. I think there's an opportunity here, I would say for many organizations to demonstrate leadership, to engage experts or workers in that space who understand what Anti-black racism can and does look like for Black workers and how to develop a very direct plan and set timelines and targets. That's often what's missing when organizations will have these conversations, but they are perpetually frankly, afraid or hesitant or uncertain about setting timelines and targets towards change.
Charlene Theodore:
What I find myself in the position of being able to have these conversations with law firm leaders and our stakeholders at the OBA and what I say is, "Look, we're really standing right now," and quite frankly, I was saying this before this summer, "we're really standing right now at the intersection of largely monolithic, traditional boardroom culture and a new more diverse workforce that wants the equality of opportunity to do their best work." And I think that you need to look at that reality of what your workforce is like. Who is in your workforce and who are going to be the law firm leaders of the next generation to get away from that mindset of, this is the right thing to do or continuously arguing or having people of color argue for the business case for diversity. I think you need to recognize that. What are your thoughts on that?
Anthony Morgan:
Absolutely. I fully agree that we are in this place where it's not meant to be. I don't mean it in a confrontational sense, but there's a power shift that we have to recognize is happening as the demographics of Canada continue to shift and the demographics of professional spaces continue to shift. Of course,they're not shiftingfast enough, but they are shifting. And there are a lot more talented, qualified, exceptional Black, racialized in business women and people living with disabilities. And yes, they are coming. And our organizations, if there-
Charlene Theodore:
They're here.
Anthony Morgan:
They're here. Yeah, you can say they're here. We are here. And if organizations want to remain relevant, profitable, resonant and responsible, I think there's a level of humility and collective understanding that needs to happen, that it will benefit these organizations once they realize that the demographics, the dynamics definitely have to shift. And these racialized people and more specifically, Black folks will enhance the way in which we do our work, if we create healthier inclusive spaces for them to thrive in this organization.
Charlene Theodore:
I'm interested to hear your take on this specifically because you've worked in private practice, you do consulting globally and you work in city hall. And so the other point of this podcast is, look, we're looking
to learn from people in any sector that have gotten this right. And one of the reasons why we need to get out of our own bubble and look at the way other fields are doing it, whether it's banking, whether it's tech, whether it's engineering, is because different sectors are moving at different paces when it comes to getting this stuff, with regards to not just workplace culture generally, but specifically workplace culture from an equity lens.
Charlene Theodore:
And so I'm wondering what your thoughts are as to how law as an industry is fairing with meeting the demands of that intersection I talked about. That monolithic boardroom culture up against the new diverse population of lawyers that need something different. Sometimes fundamentally different out of the workplace culture. And I ask you that in the context that law firms specifically, unlike other, maybe tech or startups, they're built to be multi-generational businesses. When you have stewardship over a law firm, you run it in a way that that stewardship will let that firm live on for generations to come.
When we look at some of our oldest law firms, whether they're small firms or big law. So I wonder how you think law as a profession is fairing against other industries when it comes to grappling with some of these issues.
Anthony Morgan:
I think there's a lot of room for improvement if I'm honest, and that's not just my personal opinion, anybody who has genuine, authentic relationships with Black people within the legal professional, whether they are in private practice or not, there is a collective sense that even if their organizations are trying, even if law firms are trying by and large, they're not succeeding, I will say. There is a new standard that's been set within other sectors, within organizations of having more open, direct conversation. And even just among their peers of the legal profession, as in my peer sectors, the legal profession, unfortunately finds itself in a space where it looks like, to a lot of Black folks that they're running with concrete feet.
Anthony Morgan:
And so they're not moving as quickly as they can. They might be trying, again, if you think about the imagery of someone trying to run with concrete feet, they are set in a way of doing things where they'll have the conversation, but when it comes to shifting workplace culture, the approach to recruiting, hiring, where they find talent, how they divvy up files to allow different associates to prove themselves there hasn't been a race conscious focus that's deliberate to say, "We are actively wanting to move against racism and specifically Anti-black racism or Anti indigenous racism or any form of discrimination within our operations."
Anthony Morgan:
Generally the legal profession is lagging behind that. And this is also recognized by the report that was commissioned by the Law Society of Ontario, then of upper Canada, of course, the experiences of racialized licensees. If any leader within a law firm or within the legal profession is uncertain about what to do, much of what you can do is articulated within that report. There's years of research, reflection, surveys, data analysis that was already done. So you don't have to reinvent the wheel. You don't have to be intimidated. A lot of the answers, I won't say all the answers, but a lot of the answers, that you can do are articulated in that report. And some organizations, of course, some law firms have committed themselves and there are parts of it that they're required to commit themselves to what's called for in
the report. But there's still so much further to go when you look at who is still absent, who is succeeding, who's thriving, who's staying there the longest, who's staying there the least.
Charlene Theodore:
Exactly. So switch topics a little bit, Anthony, you said before with reference to your work with the police and the community, that training alone is not transformative. What should affective EDI training in a general sense accomplish? I'm not necessarily speaking training the police, but I thought it was a great quote because I know both you and I are of the view that there are varying levels of effectiveness when it comes to EDI training out there. So your thoughts on what does effective EDI look like? What should it accomplish?
Anthony Morgan:
Yeah. I think one of the challenges with a lot of EDI work is that it ends up leaning more towards comfort rather than change. And so if the conversations or if the activity or if the person delivering the message makes us feel uncomfortable, folks tend to use it as an excuse, unfortunately, to shut down, to close out, to not take the opportunity for learning. Because the idea is that if we're going to have these conversations about equity, diversity, and inclusion, they have to make me feel good. And if they make me feel good, then this thing's a valuable thing to pursue. But if they challenge me, if they make me feel like, oh, I might've made mistakes that don't feel good or worse, am I a racist? If the session-
Charlene Theodore:
Yeah, that's a big one.
Anthony Morgan:
... triggers that thought or that question within folks, when I say folks, in my experience within the legal profession, very specifically, unfortunately tend to lean away from that and push more towards the sense of collective comfort. And so where I would see these sessions on equity, diversity and inclusion being most effective is where there is an expressed notice that, hey, there's going to be part of this that will feel uncomfortable and it'll feel uncomfortable not because you're bad people, but because a lot of us don't have experience with these conversations or enough experience. And so what's happening is there could be a stretching and a growing that's going to happen within your consciousness, within your experience.
Anthony Morgan:
And then beyond that, I think it's really important for these sessions to focus on outcomes. That's so critically important where we in legal organizations and often corporate spaces where there has been histories of, frankly, White privilege or racialized people don't tend to be represented in the upper ranks of the organization leading that sector of the organization, what we find too often is that the conversation around policy doesn't happen.
Anthony Morgan:
So looking very directly at our ways of, and hiring of recruiting data collection in and of itself, many organizations would find it appalling to try to enter into a new market without data on how that market is functioning. But regularly they think, "Oh, we're going to do this equity, diversity and inclusion work without doing an assessment of, well, how many racialized people, how many Black people, how many
queer identified folks, how many indigenous folks?" Collecting that data and regularly reporting on it internally.
Anthony Morgan:
And I'm not saying without thinking about privacy anonymization, that can be done and there's a lot of research on that. But what tends to happen is that these organizations will decide for their employees or for the folks that they service and they'll say, "Can't do that because of privacy issues." But they haven't sat down with the actual stakeholder groups and say, "Hey, we would like to do this. This is how we anticipate it's going to look. Do you have concerns about privacy?" No, they decide for them. And in deciding for those communities, they don't realize that they're actually replicating a systemic disadvantage because you're not allowing those people to speak for themselves. It's a paternalistic way of approaching change even while masked as a benevolent protectionism. But that is still very paternalistic.
Anthony Morgan:
And so we need to be mindful. If you genuinely have those concerns, ask the communities that you're seeking to create change for, get input from them, get their ideas as to how you could still protect those privacy interests. And you can still set those benchmarks, collect that data and be able to evaluate yourselves and your progress moving forward.
Charlene Theodore:
So I agree with you, Anthony, and I also think it's important for our listeners who are maybe just tackling these issues for the first time to know that there is a balance in terms of the scope of responsibility for effecting that change. One of the things you mentioned, Anthony, earlier really resonated with me, and it is about the inability to sit in some of that discomfort. When we're talking about the conversations, that it's just one tool that is required to really reframe or change your workplace culture and people, current cohort of leaders in the legal profession, feeling like, "Does somebody think I'm racist? Have I may have done something to offend someone?" And that is where I see, time and time again, that communication breaks down.
Charlene Theodore:
But you also said something that I also know in that if any firm was going to do a new initiative, firm or company or government department was going to introduce a new initiative, they would do the work of having conversations of looking at data, looking at numbers, and it doesn't evoke those feelings of discomfort that makes them want to shut the conversation down in the same way. They're able to look at it as like, this is good for the workplace, let's make a decision based on the data and based on what's good for our business and the kind of company that we want to be. Given that is where a lot of the initiatives shut down and where the conversation shuts down, do you think it's just the inability of people to manage their expectations about this is going to feel uncomfortable to be able to ride through that process. That's the sticking point of why EDI goals aren't going further?
Anthony Morgan:
I think that is a big part of it. Generally I'd frame it as a over personalization and that's not an attack, it's not a judgment. But it's more about how we situate the commitments to change. Yes, we all need do our individual part and rethink our attitudes, beliefs, and practices. But when it comes to this work, it should be about the overall outcomes, the way in which we function. The climate that we create
collectively. So it's not about singling out and pointing out an individual and saying, "You, you, you are racist, you go. And you, you, you are not. And so you stay." That's not the exercise at all. But I think because of our lack of experience with these conversations, specifically on questions of race, some of us pivot or default to that. Like, "This is about a personal assessment on things that I've done or not done, said or not said that could be construed as racist." As opposed to how can our organization just do better by, with, for racialized people or Black people specifically?
Anthony Morgan:
And so I think by recognizing that it's about a collective commitment for the organization and doing better by the organization, it allows for an appropriate depersonalization. It's not about me, it's not about that person, it's about what we do as a company, how we function, how we move and how we are known to our stakeholders based on how we function. Because if it does become overly personalized, yeah, your emotions... There's a lot of research that shows emotions literally impact your learning. If how you're feeling is leaving you feeling angry, anxious, unsettled, and you give into those feelings too much, your ability to process and grow, frankly, is fundamentally undermined. And so I think it's for all of us as individuals and as organizations to know that that's going to be a part of the journey.
Anthony Morgan:
What I like to think about in a historical parallel, not to make a false equivalent, but thinking about the shifts that happened around dynamics of gender, I'm speaking specifically about women entering the workplace. And while there is still a lot of sexual harassment and gender parity issues that we still have not yet conquered, if we just look 50 years ago, certainly men felt very uncomfortable about women entering this space, but there is a social imperative that was like, this is just happening and shifts need to happen. And it's not complete, it's still ongoing. But the point I'm making is that, that discomfort wasn't enough to stop that change. And so we as organizations, folks within organizations also have to be mindful to say, and it might feel uncomfortable. That's normal. But as we grow, as our stamina, frankly increases our familiarity or comfort, frankly, our confidence increases, then we'll be able to properly manage those feelings. Or the feelings will just actually go away because we'll realize that this is about how our organization functions and how folks see our organization as functioning and not about us.
Charlene Theodore:
100%. You cannot take all of the personal out of it completely. Because in actuality, we're not talking about entering into a new market or another country, we're talking about people. And so it is inherently personal. But what I hope that people start to recognize through this podcast and initiatives like it, it's also the cost of ownership. When you take on ownership and stewardship of a business or a law firm, that's part of the cost. That's a skill set that you need to have. If we didn't know it before we know it now.
Anthony Morgan:
Absolutely.
Charlene Theodore:
So moving beyond training, what are some other steps that leadership in legal workplaces can take to be effective when it comes to cultural change that fosters equality and inclusion? And I want to ask you this, particularly in the context of those traditional environments, that resist change.
Anthony Morgan:
I would say one of the first things that organizations should be doing is tapping the right expertise to get a sense of the folks who are in the organization, who are racialized or Black and get a sense of what their experiences are. There's different language for it. Some folks call it an equity audit or some sort of organizational assessment. But the idea is that we have to accept and understand that some of the best answers as to where the organization has not done so well or where they can do better, would be from the people who've lived it and experienced it. And so a thing that an organization can do is bring in the right resources, hire an external consultant or a vendor of some sort and find a way to survey and assess what the climate is. How folks feel. The racialized folks, but also the organization itself, get that collective understanding from folks, how do they value? Do they collectively see EDI within its appropriate context and value as a core commitments of excellence for the organization? And so I would say that would be one critical thing.
Anthony Morgan:
Another piece has to do with an adoption of, and I've spoken to this already, but a commitment to a policy review and that's across the board. But one of the critical places has to do with recruitment, division of work, assessment, all the way up to how we decide who's a partner and who's not. If we're not being deliberate and creating policies and practices, or at least standards that encourage us to have a mindfulness to avoid replicating disadvantage, then we are going to reproduce the status quo. Those assessments are key. A policy and assessment review is really important. Think deep investments within professional development opportunities and making sure that you're tracking how those are being extended and who's getting an opportunity to go to conferences, get funding for seminars, who's being brought in as speakers.
Anthony Morgan:
One of the things that I actually really want to quickly say is that, for instance, the time where we might see a Black speaker would be Black History Month. But you're not bringing in a Black speaker to talk about security, you're not making that deliberate choice to do that or talk about taxation policy or amendments to the code when those come up.
Anthony Morgan:
What I'm getting at is overwhelmingly, our legal organizations and institutions tend to only find Black expertise and excellence legible when they're talking about Black people or talking about equity, diversity and inclusion, as opposed to, Charlene Theodore, yes, she's Black and very proud as a Black person, she's a labor lawyer. She's an excellent labor lawyer. Let's just have a conversation about that. It doesn't have to be a special program. And that's not exclusive to Black folks. You do the same thing with indigenous folks, with queer folks, with folks living with disabilities. It has to be a special day, and we want to hear them talk about that, as opposed to creating a culture where we're seeing excellence, we're seeing their expertise being leveraged in their work that goes beyond equity, diversity and inclusion.
Charlene Theodore:
Well, I really appreciate you saying that. Not just the part about my work as a labor lawyer, but it's a message that everybody needs to hear. And there is no indigenous, Black, queer or other equity seeking person that's listening to this podcast that does not know what you're talking about. This isn't news to us, but it's an important message for people outside of our communities that have the power to give
opportunities in terms of professional development and building your book of business if you're in private practice to hear that as well. So I appreciate it. Thank you.
Charlene Theodore:
So Anthony, everybody's talking about it. We've talked a lot already about hiring, that initial part of diversifying your workplace, but what's equally important as you mentioned, is looking at who's saying. So let's talk about how you can create a welcoming environment for all of the lawyers that work for you. And so that everybody, no matter what their race, gender, sexual orientation feels that they can come there and do their best work and build phenomenal careers within your organization, whatever it may be. What do you think characterizes a welcoming work environment for, not just Black employees, indigenous employees and other employees of color?
Anthony Morgan:
I think the major thing has to do with whether or not those folks feel like they can bring all of themselves into the workplace. Overwhelmingly, racialized people, especially Black folks, indigenous folks, queer folks, they really feel like they have to check parts of themselves at the door. They're not getting signs and signals from the organization that they can talk about their lived experiences. Of course recognize that it's still work and their professional line, and I'm not talking about breaching any of those, but even within the realm of what is professional and acceptable, you will find that there are a lot of, I'll speak from as a Black person in my expertise in addressing issues of Anti-black racism, very basic things like, can I talk about this matter that came up in the news? This could be stigmatizing for some folks, but here's what I'll say, there was a shooting in a community. And I don't know anybody who's involved, but I actually came up adjacent to that community and came to that community.
Anthony Morgan:
And then there's a water cooler conversation in the days before COVID, you would have, say a Black associate would be like, "Do I say I actually know that community well? Is that okay? Will I be replicating the stereotype that all Black people are engaged in violence? Or all Black people come from communities of poverty and violence? Because we don't all, but yes, I happen to know that community." And so there's got to be ways in which a company is familiar with the diverse realities, but also common realities for Blackfolks.
Anthony Morgan:
I will say that because these shifts and changes have of Black folks, specifically Black people entering the legal profession and different rounds of Bay Street, there still are folks who come from families that are still within communities that experience socioeconomic neglect and challenges where unfortunately there are instances of violence or there's some social breakdown that can create stigmatization. There's got to be a way in which our law firms are mindful of the fact that once Black people, for instance, become lawyers, that history doesn't disappear. That experience doesn't disappear. Those family and friend connections don't disappear.
Anthony Morgan:
But I also want to be very clear in saying all Black people don't come from those communities. So it's a fine balance. You don't want to assume that all Black people come from those communities, but I think there is a responsible way of having these conversations about these issues and part of developing that responsible way of having those conversations is normalizing conversations about racism and race and
stigmatization and how that can impact individuals. And that's just one example, but there are other things that come up for instance, where companies are not deliberate and proactive, for instance in talking about what is the appropriate dress and hair within the workplace in a way that is inclusive, that is representative of a diverse range of experiences where we're not using frankly, European standards of hair and dress as the exclusive way of what professionalism looks like.
Anthony Morgan:
And so where that's not happening, many racialized and especially Black employees or staff will feel like, "Because I haven't gotten a direct signal that this is okay, I'm assuming it's not. So I'm going to start self- censoring, I'm going to start leaving parts of myself at the door. I'm going to start not fully participating because I don't feel like I can safely do that within this space."
Charlene Theodore:
Both really good points. I think when you talk about people not being able to bring their whole selves to work, again, maintaining professional boundaries, there's a difference between perhaps White male employees feeling comfortable to talk about their experiences growing up or home lives and people who have had different experiences not feeling that it's socially acceptable in some way. And yes, some of that is linked to socioeconomic background, but I'll tell you what, after the murder of George Floyd, everyone, no matter what your socioeconomic background had to wrestle with, how do we support our Black employees to varying degrees of success? I am so fortunate at the way my employer dealt with it and the love and care that they reached out to me personally with. And well, not everybody had that experience.
Charlene Theodore:
And so I think maybe another tip that I'm just thinking of now emerging from this conversation is if you want to do a litmus test on how welcome it feels for your Black associates, just maybe asking and having conversations about your firm's response to George Floyd. Did your Black employees feel like it went well? Where were your successes and where were your failures? I think that'll give you a good temperature, a good reading of where you're doing in terms of just the interpersonal, the community aspect of the workplace and how it's working for your employees of color.
Anthony Morgan:
I fundamentally agree. I think there's an opportunity for a lot of folks to do that now, because a lot of their firms and organizations where they're practicing or delivering service did release statements. And from what I'm hearing, too many of those instances where the statements were released, the Black folks were actually not actively involved in helping to think through what that statement would look like. And so that's not a best practice, doing all that. As organizations, you want to make sure that you are involving that group, that you're seeking to speak in solid area, you're actually hearing from them.
Charlene Theodore:
Yeah. I think if you released a statement and you didn't check in with your employees of color, your Black employees, specifically in this event, you may want to ask for some feedback about how they felt about that. I know my workplace, I wasn't involved in drafting it, and I appreciated that because I didn't have the mental energy to put pen to paper, but they checked in with me about, "Look, this is what we want to do. And it's not your job to fix it, but we don't want to say anything that you think is offside." So that's one. So if you released a statement and they weren't involved, or they were maybe involved in a
way that was peripheral, that may have been something that they appreciated, like, "I didn't have to do anything. They said just the right thing," or it may not have been. So check in with them about that, and if you only contacted them about the statement, you may want to check in-
Anthony Morgan:
Absolutely.
Charlene Theodore:
... about that. Anthony, as you're aware as president of the OBA, this year I launched an initiative called Not Another Decade, to really transform what we're talking about, good intentions into meaningful, measurable progress when it comes to equality. I want to know how optimistic you are about the likelihood of the current global outrage, and I call it a reckoning about Anti-black racism specifically and inequality and inequity in our systems generally, how optimistic are you about this tone, this time that we're living in right now, producing far reaching enduring change in our workplaces and our legal institutions?
Anthony Morgan:
It's a great question. I would say that my honest answer is I'm cautiously optimistic. First, on the optimistic part there unquestionably has been a level of fervor and expansiveness of the conversations on Anti-black racism in a way that for many folks they haven't seen since maybe the civil rights movement. And some have argued that it's even beyond that. As in this conversation that we're currently having is actually more intense than what was happening with the civil rights movement. So in that way, it creates a great amount of optimism for me in that those conversations open up new possibilities for change and expands our collective imagination as to what can and should be as it relates to not just Black people, but for all of us. What is the collective standard of justice in our society?
Anthony Morgan:
That said, I think the more cautious piece comes with just knowing the histories of struggle. And the reality is those histories of struggle often happen in cycles. So there will be an upswing, and then there's actually a blowback. I'm cautiously optimistic because of those cycles. There have been times where Black communities have raised the calls about injustice and made some gains, moved things forward.
But then what followed was a slow roll back where the status quo of previous days was reestablished.
Anthony Morgan:
And so where I think we can avoid too hard roll back is if everyone really stands up and stays committed and say, "No, I like the direction and the momentum that we're going. Every day, every week, every quarter, I'm going to commit and recommit, to doing something to support my team, my organization, my agency, my family, to move in the direction that bends towards what Martin Luther King called the arc of justice." If we are deliberate and expressive about that, I think that'll make it less likely that we'll fall right back into the old status quo.
Charlene Theodore:
Listeners, we have our marching orders from the one and only, Mr. Anthony Morgan. Thanks so much Anthony for spending the time.
Anthony Morgan:
Thank you so much for having me, Madam President. Charlene Theodore:
Well, I think if you take just one message away from my discussion with Anthony today it should be his caution to not confuse or conflate symbolic change with substantive change. Follow through with your statements of solidarity in meaningful ways. Substantive change is about changing people, policies and processes that ultimately produce the outcomes you’ve committed to. As Anthony told us, we must ‘finish the thought’, and that applies to training, too. After education should come action. There is also work we might do before training. Just because people participate doesn’t mean they’re receptive. And, in fact, many shut down if EDI training challenges them and makes them question their own attitudes and behaviour. Ultimately, good EDI training should be about change rather than comfort. If providing participants with advance warning that it will be uncomfortable will help them be more open to it, without over-personalizing it, then that is notice that is worth giving. Be upfront: you can describe that the training – and the expectation – is about providing experience in driving difficult, but necessary conversations, and you can provide encouragement and safe spaces for those discussions to happen.
Listen to the experience of Black and other racialized employees when it comes to creating a more inclusive workplace. Find out how they feel about the culture. And look to the reports out there that capture the experiences of racialized licensees when articulating your commitment to EDI and developing plan that is apt to have impact. Your equity audit should include a review of policy, across the board, but, most critically, of recruitment, division of work, performance assessment, all the way up to who’s a partner and who is not. Remember that mindfulness is the key to ensuring we don’t replicate disadvantage. Don’t decide, on behalf of your employees, that privacy issues preclude data mining.
Instead, ask the community you’re seeking to create change for if they have any concerns.
Institutionalized change requires commitment and a plan – where it is clear who is accountable for what
– and continual monitoring and tracking to see it through. When connecting Black and racialized employees with speaking and other profile-building opportunities, look beyond EDI events to forums where they can share their experience and expertise in other areas of legal practice and professional development. Consider whether all your employees feel comfortable bringing their whole selves to work. If they feel they must check parts of themselves – their history, their community, their connections – at the door, they won’t feel they can participate fully in that workspace. Have the conversations and check-ins necessary to ensuring everyone feels safe and accepted being themselves. When mentoring someone, take time to consider where they’re coming from and what they need. Consider, too, whether there is someone in your circle with a similar lived experience or identity who might contribute useful guidance. For young lawyers, connecting with people whose career journey and leadership approach you admire, will help you learn how to advance change and to be a better lawyer. You will be more effective as a leader of change, if you continue learning and maintain a connection to the communities you want to support. We, as a profession, are moving in the right direction. The best way to keep this momentum going is to recommit every day to doing something to foster inclusion in our spaces and to contribute to the arc of justice.
You can find both the Ontario Bar Association and me, your host, Charlene Theodore, on LinkedIn and on Twitter. Let's keep this conversation going. Rate and review this episode on Apple Podcasts and follow the link in the episode description for additional resources. (Silence).