An alienating environment and lack of meaningful motivation may well be driving a new generation of lawyers out of traditional law en masse.
Aly Haji, author of “An Exodus Explained: Millennials at Law Firms,” offers insight into how firms can stem the tide and engage the purpose and passion of this distinctly diverse, dedicated and values-driven cohort with an eye to ownership, autonomy, and impact.
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Charlene Theodore:
Hello and welcome to the Work That Works podcasts. I'm your host, Charlene Theodore. Before I begin, I want to acknowledge that I'm recording this episode from the Dish With One Spoon Territory. I'm grateful to the original owners for taking care of this land and I recognize the trees that govern it.
Knowing that our listeners span the country and are tuning in from other areas with their own treaties and unseated territories, I encourage you to continue learning more about the indigenous history in your community. It is important history and a story that continues.
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Charlene Theodore:
For years, the millennial generation has been pitted against the generations before them. In many ways it's been an us versus them age comparison, but the term millennial represents so much more than just an age cohort. Millennials represent a new socioeconomic class, a wide ranging diversity of backgrounds and perspectives, and most importantly, they are the generation poised to be the bridge between traditional boardroom culture and more modern workplaces. So what can the millennial generation tell us about the future of our work and how we can take their diversity of perspective and use it to inspire meaningful changes? Let's get to it. I'm OBA president Charlene Theodore, and this is the Work That Works podcast. I'm joined by Aly Haji. Aly is a lawyer at Glick Law. He is also the author of an in-depth and provocative law MBA thesis that has sparked considerable conversation online and within the legal community about why traditional law firms are failing to engage and inspire passion, purpose, loyalty, and career satisfaction in new lawyers from all walks of life.
Charlene Theodore:
With his revelatory thesis, An Exodus Explained Millennials At Law Firms, Ali is opening eyes in our profession to what cultural inertia may cost us in innovation, efficiency and sustainability. His detailed research and incisive analysis established that we ignore millennial dissatisfaction within today's law firm environment at our peril. I'm looking forward to finding out from Ali, what drives this diverse, idealistic, and ambitious generation of lawyers and what firms can do to up the value proposition for these up and coming leaders in law? Welcome Ali.
Aly Haji:
Great to be here.
Charlene Theodore:
Thanks. So before diving into what isn't working for millennials in today's law firms, I'd be interested to hear what was your impression of the legal profession once you got called to the bar and you joined it?
Aly Haji:
I think I have like a multi-faceted appreciation for the law in the sense that you're mentioning simply because I'm engaged with it on so many levels. So while I was in law school, I had the chance to pursue a joint MBA degree. So I got to experience corporate law and different elements of, uh, business strategy as they intersect with law. After law school, I was fortunate enough to be able to clerk at the Supreme Court of Canada, where I experienced law, kind of at the appellate level and a wide range of [inaudible 00:04:02] level. And I was able to observe firsthand the impact that law can have on lives of everyday people and the decisions that judges can make on that level.
Aly Haji:
Then while I was at Cambridge doing my masters, I was able to see kind of the theory of law and kind of the underpinnings and all of that kind of informs my practice today at Glick Law, where we focus on professional discipline, which is a very practical element of the law. It kind of integrates all of those other elements. So there's strategy involved, there's obviously legal reasoning in terms of what I saw at the Supreme Court and also theoretical elements of the law that I was able to explore while I was at Cambridge.
Charlene Theodore:
That's a perfect segue kind of moving on to your having experienced different aspects of the practice of law and also our judiciary system as a whole while clerking for the Supreme Court. What was it that motivated you to tackle millennials at law firms, that specific topic in your thesis?
Aly Haji:
Well, it was really interesting in my law MBA degree, and I'm sure most students in kind of similar programs that have joined the school will experience this, is that you're sort of held back. So, so what I would see in my law MBA degree is that people that I started one L with would be graduating and starting to practice while I was still in school. And the last years of my degrees, the kind of research years where you're able to kind of take on whatever projects you want. And it was startling to me who had always wanted to practice law and kind of always saw myself working at a big firm, the amount of dissatisfaction and disenchantment that people had with working at these law firms.
Aly Haji:
And those kind of startling to me because I saw myself working at these places in two or three years and, uh, see all my friends and my colleagues that I'd started one L with who were so passionate about the law and who really wanted to engage with the law. And for whom getting into law school was such a bigdealtosee themkindofdeflatedandkindofdisenchantedbythewholethingwasareallydisturbing for lack of a better word. And so when I had the opportunity to engage some independent research, I thought, why not put my mind toward first innovation law, which was my first paper and then for my thesis, millennials of all firms on a more sociologicalbasis?
Charlene Theodore:
So you made the observations of, you know, you're seeing a let down right after, I guess, that goal of joining a traditional law firm practice was achieved. So how do you go about conducting your research?
Aly Haji:
Well, it's interesting because I saw along with that let down, I mean, this was a law MBA thesis, so there had to be kind of some business strategy involved, but it wasn't necessarily why, why, young lawyers are
being let down by firms, but simultaneously why young lawyers are being let down and why law firms aren't profiting as much as they should from young lawyers. So I'm sure it comes to no surprise to your listeners that from recruitment of students to becoming a second or third year lawyer, a lawyer is a net kind of cost on a firm to train the lawyer to kind of engage in [inaudible 00:07:03] activities overhead.
Aly Haji:
It's only out around the third and fourth year, according to the data collected, that lawyers started making money for a firm or generating net returns. So it was kind of this dual thing that millennials are dissatisfied and that's leading to law firms losing revenues and losing the kind of profits that they would on their investment into lawyers and how they can make better investments into talents. And so that, that was kind of the avenue of inquiry, that that's kind of what we wanted to look at.
Charlene Theodore:
So are you saying that, you're saying the first three years they're a cost to the firm because they're not generating as much income as the firm is putting into their development. So the first few years they have to learn, build a book of business, et cetera. And so are you saying that lawyer... The firms are losing money because lawyers, millennial lawyers, are leaving after that point before the firm can recoup their investment?
Aly Haji:
Yeah. So th- that's, that's what the data's showing. That's what kind of we saw from the data is that firms expect lawyers to be kind of net profitable on their own after the third year into their fourth year and fifth year, when they can operate autonomously, but they're investing all this money and recruiting and training these people and paying for their overhead and not really gaining anything because the point of attrition is around year two or year three.
Charlene Theodore:
I'd also like to hear more about the reaction to your thesis. Uh, you know, from my own experience within the OBA, as a member and a leader, I know many of our members and partner firms are trying to create more inclusive and healthy and balanced practice environments, it's kind of quite frankly, the reason that we're doing this podcast. So since releasing our thesis, have you heard from firm leaders who are doing innovative things to appeal to that target group, millennial lawyers?
Aly Haji:
I mean, I think there is a real trend in the legal community as a whole towards change and towards embracing these values, values, and ideals. And I mean, the fact that I'm being interviewed by the OBA president, who is now a female person of color, I think is really a big deal. And congratulations by the way.
Charlene Theodore:
Thank you. Thank you.
Aly Haji:
Um, I think that the reaction has been overwhelmingly positive and overwhelmingly inquisitive as to what firms can do to change. And you're right, there have been pushes towards change, but I would
caution optimism on those points simply because, I mean, my first study that I did kind of showed that a lot of these strategies that law firms put forward are somewhat marketing strategies and there's no follow through. I think what we need to really understand is a fundamental cultural shift is needed at law firms, not just in terms of millennials, but also in terms of diversity in terms of inclusiveness. And I think that there is a significant amount of institutional inertia and cultural inertia at law firms that prevents that cultural shift from becoming more systemic.
Aly Haji:
So I think that it's necessary to understand is that law firms predominantly in their current form developed from the 1960s, 1980s with baby boomers at their helm and were incredibly profitable during those times. That kind of developed a culture around it that was embraced by subsequent lawyers that came after. And we were only seeing kind of this attitudinal change. And I think the fact that the law firm has an institution has been so profitable in the past has led to this kind of institutional inertia that makes culture very difficult to change. And I think you have to kind of realize that that's a large barrier to overcome. So simply saying we have diversity and inclusiveness programs, we are trying to tailor ourselves to millennials isn't really enough to combat that inertia and to affect that cultural change, what you really need is kind of systemic strategies. And so even though I think it's positive to see people discussing this, I think substantive change really needs to underlie those kinds ofconcepts.
Charlene Theodore:
Let's look at it, I guess, from the other side. We're hearing a lot from firm leaders and there's a lot of talk and queries and questions about some of the things that you've proposed in your work. I want to know what you're hearing from your target group, that more diverse field of incoming lawyers, millennial lawyers, who are establishing maybe their own firms, that buck convention, whether they're coming out and establishing their own firms early on, or, you know, whether this is something that they're going into at that year three point that you talk about. What new approaches or models are theyadopting?
Aly Haji:
So I think the boutique law firm model is something that a lot of millennials lawyers are flocking to. I think there's growing dissatisfaction with the law firm model on three separate points that I think millennials and their kind of gen X predecessors, so people around their 40s right now kind of want. The first of these is kind of to have ownership of your work and to kind of have responsibility for your work, not just in a financial sense, so to profit from it, but also in a sense that you appreciate what the impact of your work is. That's number one. Number two, is the meaning of your work and to find meaningfulness in what you're doing, so in the larger context of things. And the third of those is to have freedom and autonomy in their work. So to be able to do work on your own terms and to be able to cultivate that kind of lifestyle that you want in your work, not letting work, kind of overtake what you're doing.
Aly Haji:
So I think those three things have been appointed to satisfaction for a long time. And a lot of lawyers now who are more senior, are opening their own kind of shops, and their own kind of boutiques using their expertise and knowledge to develop workplaces that cultivate those three values that are also what millennials want. So millennials are flocking to that. So I can give you the example of kind of the firm that I work for right now, which is Glick Law. Our founder, and the managing partner, Jordan Glick, he started the firm after working in a big firm for a really long time. What he basically wanted was
freedom to work and ownership of the work that he was doing. And so he's cultivated a really innovative model that I as a millennial really appreciate and really value. And it's become kind of the ideal place for me to work.
Aly Haji:
I really enjoy the work we do. I find meaning in that work, I have the autonomy to do the work on the terms that I want. And I get ownership in the work that I do. It's interesting because not only is that beneficial for a millennial like me in, in creating a workplace that works for me, but also I think it creates a workplace that works for the client because... But in doing those things and embracing those values, you're able to create value for your clients and to create a workplace that's optimized to deliver client value and make things more efficient.
Charlene Theodore:
Well, you must be reading my mind because that was going to be my next question. Let's look at it from the perspective of the client. There is some inertia in firm culture, and I want to be able to really bring the innovation conversation, I want to expand it beyond technology and to the actual function of running a profitable and sustainable business in this profession. And that means that you have to address workplace culture, that when we say profitable, profitable and sustainable means that you're going to have diverse, happy employees that are kind of going to be able to do their work, have a platform to do so. On the other side, that's going to attract clients that are also happy. And so how do making those changes, those workplace culture changes where you're sensitive to the needs of the new more diverse generation changes that are founded in a sense of ownership, freedom, and autonomy, and, and, uh, some meaning to it, how do those changes benefit clients?
Aly Haji:
First of all, I'm really happy to see a leader in the kind of legal community say that, in it's really important that we shift their focus on innovation and change away from technology and sort of to also include culture and also to systematic change. So thank you for that. I think that the three things that I mentioned, three values are kind of overarching themes that millennials and I think everyone more generally wants in their work, so ownership of your work, meaning in your work and the freedom and autonomy to do your work. I think those themes also cultivate value for clients if embraced properly. And I think that moves beyond simply saying happy employees are productive employees, which is what a lot of people kind of justify these strategies on. And I think it's a misnomer to say that, and I think it trivializes it.
Aly Haji:
I think the most poignant example is to look at freedom and autonomy in your work. So millennials generally want freedom and autonomy to work where they want when they want and how they want. That creates an impetus and catalyzes firms to embrace technological change and innovation at a more [inaudible 00:15:33] workplaces, desk hoteling, kind of these new concepts, just because millennials want them. That in turn leads to people being able to work remotely and being able to change the workplace, which in turn then reduces the need for overhead and reduces the need for giant office buildings and boardrooms that reduces our firm's overhead and leads to from profiting more from its clients, but also allows the firm to deliver greater value to its clients because that overhead is no longer worked in.
Aly Haji:
And I think that that's something that's been most clearly demonstrated to me at the firm that Glick Law, where I work, we basically don't have any overhead. Our physical footprint is minimal. And I think that allows us to deliver really strong value to clients, which allows us to deliver work at a significantly reduced kind of price, even though the work is of similar caliber to places where the cost of it would be significantlyhigher.
CharleneTheodore:
Well, I think it's something that everybody's thinking about at this point, as we've all kind of been forced to work remotely. And so I think people are being forced to take a look at not just the setup of their physical workspaces, is as if they have one, but the nature and the, I guess the quantum of square- footage and what's actually needed.
Aly Haji:
Yeah, that's totally true. And I think it's interesting that you touch on that because I think the so-called good thing is created this kind of Darwinian pressure on the legal community to force it to adapt to change, and to some extent, give it what millennials wanted and what clients want, which is more efficiency because you reduce those kinds of inefficiencies and overhead costs that aren't really needed. I think that some firms have been able to do that more efficiently than others. And I think those people that are able to do that most efficiently and who had that at the core of their corporate culture prior to this whole Darwinian evolution taking place are in the best position to evolve and kind of capitalize on that now.
Charlene Theodore:
So we've discussed a number of interesting topics, but let's leave with a little last piece of advice for that. If you were talking to the law firm owners and managing partners out there, and they, you know, they asked if they could do, what's the one thing that they need to do now, or a first step to create a work environment where millennial lawyers, who are more diverse, create a workplace where they can do their best work, and quite frankly, create a workplace where they want to stay and continue to do their best work throughout their career? What would you say that one thing is, what's the starting point?
Aly Haji:
If I could say there's one thing, it would be this kind of idea of reverse mentoring. And reverse mentoring is something that'd be point... I point to, and kind of the thesis as well as being something that's very effective at not only creating an equal kind of understanding between senior leaders and associates, but also a strategy which allows the perspectives of both groups to be appreciated by one another. Um, so reverse mentoring is basically where very senior people at a law firm mentor and in turn are mentored by the most junior people. And this differs from your traditional mentoring programs that you see at most law firms, where a first year associate is mentored by a fourth year associate, or where a fourth year associate is mentored by a seventh year associate because you're automatically looking at the most senior levels being mentored and mentoring the most junior levels of the firm.
Aly Haji:
And what that does is it creates any quality of perspectives, but also allows millennials associates or junior associates to appreciate the importance of their work and to gain ownership of that work. I've
always talked about this more theoretically in the past, but I kind of have this relationship right now and are [inaudible 00:19:14].
Charlene Theodore:
Yeah, well that was going to ask, like, can you give us an example of that in action? Because in the abstract I could find... I could see people finding it hard to know how to implement that.
Aly Haji:
I think in a big firm setting, it's a lot easier because you have the time to do that and you're able to say partner X should pair with young associate Y. I mean, in my current setting, we're very stressed for time, there's only three lawyers in our firm, but still I have a very direct relationship with Jordan, who's the managing partner, and we're able to kind of explore ideas together and he's able to teach me and I'm also able to use my knowledge and experience and perspectives to inform him and inform how the firm is going. And that- that's made me really passionate about my work and really kind of take an ownership in my work.
Aly Haji:
I'll give you an example. I came up with an idea at like 2:00 AM last night, and I haven't worked with people at larger firms, and I haven't worked at a larger firm myself. I know that if I had had a similar idea and kind of would have just let it go and kept sleeping, at our current firm, because I knew that idea would be appreciated and would be followed up on and would be embraced, I kind of ran down to my office at around 2:00 AM and started outlining this idea and working on it until around 3:30, just because I was passionate about it and I took ownership in my work. And I think developing those kinds of relationships, developing that kind of attitude through reverse mentoring is really powerful. And I think it's something that firms should definitely capitalize on. So that would be the one piece of advice that I would give law firm leaders.
Charlene Theodore:
Hey, reverse mentoring. Let's talk to the other group we've been talking about, the millennial cohorts of lawyers. If there was one thing that you could say to them, millennials working in a traditional work in traditional law firm environment, and they want to stay there and be part of the change and effecting work culture, what advice would you give them?
Aly Haji:
This is kind of the same answer, but in short it's co-opting in the reverse mentoring process and developing it yourself if your firm doesn't. Um, and I think that this stems from this kind of fallacy and this really false belief that law firms instill on in their most junior associates, that during your first few years, your clients are the other lawyers in the firm that didn't work. And I, I think that kind of makes them feel like their work is not valuable and makes them feel that they're only working for other lawyers and they're kind of cog the machine because they never get to interact with the client and they never see a client. What I would stress that they do is view their work through the lens of the client and through the big picture lens and approach their work in that way.
Aly Haji:
And I think in doing that, they're able to see how their work fits in kind of the bigger picture of a case and approach the senior leaders of the firm eventually in an attempt to kind of gain traction for their
ideas, express their perspectives to those people. And I think that's important because you have a lot of diverse associates and you'll have a lot of millennial associates that are from diverse backgrounds with multiple perspectives they're able to share. And I think looking at your work in terms of a product that you're presenting to a client, as opposed to kind of another lawyer, or as a cog in a machine, enables you to approach more senior lawyers and kind of co-op that reverse mentoring process and establish those relationships that enabled the reverse mentoring process, even if the firm doesn't have a formal process for that.
Charlene Theodore:
Well, you know, Ali, I think that, you know, you said when the prefaced your answer, that it's kind of the same answer we're reverse mentoring, but the bigger takeaway that, that I got from it is a lesson I also had to learn myself, and it's about the rule of your own responsibility in finding meaning or attaching meaning to your work at the very start of your career, no matter what profession you're in, it's hard to do that. So it's going to be hard to do in law. And so I think it's important to send the message that you do have to take some personal ownership of that in terms of doing research outside of work, thinking about the case, thinking, learning about the case beyond your assignment, so you can understand the bigger picture and where your role is within it, and quite frankly, where your role could expand within that case or cases of a similar nature.
Charlene Theodore:
I found myself having to do that at the start of my career. And so I think that's a really good point. There's a lot that law firms need to do to improve. But I think that it's a very, very solid piece of advice for young lawyers to kind of look beyond that immediate assignment to find the broader meaning within their work. When I was a young lawyer, I remember someone told me that you can't fast track. There's no way around those first three to five years. So from that stage, there's not a lot of flexibility. You have to learn. You can't take on work that's beyond your scope of knowledge. There is going to be some limits to what you yourself can do as a young lawyer. But I think if you adopt that approach and kind of hang in there for the first three to five years, you'll find that, that first, that first start is, is a little easier on you and you're better prepared as you become more senior.
Aly Haji:
Yeah, I think you're totally right. And in terms of personal professional development, I think that's really, really important to see kind of beyond yourself and beyond the tasks that you're doing and kind of take it on as a responsibility to that. But I think that if you have the objective of effecting broader change in your firm and broader cultural change, and if that firm is the place that you want to be, I think the necessary next step is to approach senior leaders in your firm with that kind of attitude, and to kind of develop a relationship with them because that kind of makes your perspectives as a millennial and hopefully as a diverse millennial transcend where they would normally go and kind of allows the most senior, most people at affirm to appreciate those perspectives and embrace them and therefore changes his firm culture.
Charlene Theodore:
Yeah. I mean, I don't disagree because we're talking about two things. So one is, your actual assignments, right? Which a lot of people, you know, don't have control over. You can talk about maybe the variety or exploring different practice areas, but in terms of the level of complexity, that is really what informed about you kind of learning the practice of law. In terms of being a strong voice in your
own firm's workplace culture, in house legal departments workplace culture that can start early on. You can step up and volunteer and engage, whether it's entity groups or committees, or looking at a particular pressing issue that you feel is kind of up and coming. Those are things that you can all engage with.
Charlene Theodore:
And I think that one other practical thing is to keep your eye on your own goals. There's a common saying comparison is the thief of joy. If you're looking at the person who's giving you work and looking at their interesting work and saying, "Gosh, why can't I do that?" Well, you will be able to do that one day. Focus on your own work and focus on your own goals. I just liked the idea of that taking ownership of finding meaning in your work, because if you're at a large law firm, the managing partner can't always give it to you, right? A lot of it is when you're just starting out task oriented and that's not just for the client, it's for your benefit as well. I don't think any of us who are senior lawyers would say that we didn't learn from some of the things that we did when we were younger lawyers, even though we hated doingthem.
Aly Haji:
Most definitely, yeah. I totally agree with you.
Charlene Theodore:
This has been a really interesting discussion Ali, I wish you all the best in your career. I encourage you to continue writing about innovation in law with the understanding that innovation, in my opinion definitely means technology, but it also has to embrace the human and culture aspects as well. It was a pleasure talking to you.
Aly Haji:
Likewise. Thank you for having me.
Charlene Theodore:
Thanks so much to Ali for an enlightening discussion. While his paper certainly provides a cautionary tale, our conversation today revealed a lot of positives in terms of the talent, passion, and diversity of perspective our profession can capitalize on. And he illuminated constructive paths for engaging up and coming legal leaders. How can today's law firms keep the fire of ambition and drive burning in today's new lawyers and redirect that passion to innovative and efficient work that fuels both client and lawyer satisfaction? Well, first off, up and coming lawyers prize autonomy, the freedom to work when, where, and how they want. This is something we've all come to appreciate during this period of increasingly remote work. Investing in the technology to facilitate this can inspire a welcome cultural shift, empowering all lawyers to do their best work while reducing overhead costs and enabling more competitive pricing for their clients.
Charlene Theodore:
Secondly, when associates are working primarily for other lawyers in their firm, the impact of their contribution on outcomes and on client satisfaction can be invisible to them, and that erodes their sense of ownership in the work. Firm management must create opportunities for all members of the team, all project contributors, to witness the real world impact of the work that they do. In turn, early career lawyers can take it upon themselves to learn more about an assigned case beyond their own tasks, to
better understand their role in the bigger picture and identify where it might expand. Third to kindle a sense of passion and purpose in associates, and to provide a forum for fresh perspectives, firm leadership should consider reverse mentoring, pairing the most senior people in the organization with the most junior, so they can mentor each other. This lets the younger cohort appreciate the impact and meaning of their work, while perhaps finding traction for their ideas with senior partners who are exposed to disparate views.
Charlene Theodore:
And lastly, of course, we need to start from a commitment to overcoming this pervasive cultural inertia and law that allows for only cosmetic change when it comes to fostering an inclusive and engaging environment that works for lawyers of all ages and all backgrounds. Meaningful diversity and transformative innovation are achieved, not by marketing strategies, but by substantive sustained systemic change. Ultimately regardless of the demographic that defines us or where we reside on an organizational chart, we all want to be heard. A workplace where our opinions and expertise are appreciated and allowed to develop, bridges understanding, builds loyalty, and breeds the highest caliber of work.
Charlene Theodore:
Check out the Work That Works podcast website for additional resources, including worksheets and programs to go along with this discussion at oba.org/workthatworks. Again, that's oba.org/workthatworks. Tell us more about the topics you want to cover and what resources would be helpful. You can find us on LinkedIn and on Twitter.