A young lawyer, passionate about community-based organizing, empowering marginalized populations, and working with youth, Shani Ocquaye is a driving force behind the development and implementation of Humber College’s EDI framework and strategy. She offers insight into constructing deliberate and well-defined diversity programs, in collaboration with community, task force and employee resource group members, and creating an academic and workplace experience that is inclusive from the jump.
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Charlene Theodore:
Hello, and welcome to the Work that Works podcast. I'm your host, Charlene Theodore. Before I begin, I want to acknowledge that I'm recording this episode from the Dish With One Spoon Territory. I'm grateful to the original owners for taking care of this land, and I recognize the treaties that govern it. Knowing that our listeners span the country and are tuning in from other areas with their own treaties and unceded territories, I encourage you to continue learning more about the indigenous history in your community. It is important history and a story that continues.
Speaker 2:
At Lawyers Financial, your satisfaction is our success. It's not that money doesn't matter. Financial, it's right there in our name, but we're not-for-profit and that gives us the freedom to give you break-even pricing on insurance and investment solutions and exclusive rates on home, auto, life, and disability insurance, just to name a few. At Lawyers Financial, we focus on you so you can focus on your family, your firm, and your future, and that sounds like success by any measure.
Charlene Theodore:
As we build inclusive workplaces, listening to those with lived experience is crucial to acting empathetically and intelligently and to achieving our desired outcomes. This input is a valuable resource that organizations can simply not afford to squander, nor take for granted for fear of exhausting it entirely. How do organizational leaders through appropriate recognition reward and support, fuel the contribution of equity-seeking employees that is fundamental to enacting EDI progress? I'm OBA President, Charlene Theodore, and this is the Work that Works podcast.
Charlene Theodore:
My guest today is a lawyer and EDI advocate with Humber College whose work includes healthy, inclusive campus initiatives and equity, diversity and inclusion programs. Her focus is collaborating with members of the Humber College community to ensure an enriching, accessible, and empowering experience for the diverse population the school serves and strives to engage. With her EDI programming and community-based organizing expertise, Shani Ocquaye has profound insight into how to harness the perspective of those with lived experience, strategically and sensitively in cultivating inclusive environments without unfairly burdening them with the responsibility for solving systemic inequities. I'm looking forward to getting her thoughts on that and other barrier breaking practices in our conversation today. Welcome Shani. Thanks so much for joining us today.
Shani Ocquaye:
Thanks Charlene for having me.
Charlene Theodore:
Now, Shani, you're working with a variety of stakeholders in your role at Humber College in managing their EDI programs and leading inclusion efforts. Can you speak to some of the programs you're focusing on now?
Shani Ocquaye:
Sure, certainly. As a little background, let me back up a couple of steps. Right now Humber is in year four of their five-year strategic plan. One of the priorities that they identified was the establishment of an institutional EDI framework and strategy. That's why I was hired. I was hired in about year two to be able to help manage that development and implementation piece. I'm working with the Center for Human Rights, Equity and Inclusion at Humber to be able to implement that framework and strategy. That's the overall EDI program that I'm helping manage. We're looking at a variety of different areas to answer your question. We're looking at access and equity for students and employees, so that means looking at the recruitment, retention and advancement of employees and students from equity seeking groups.
Shani Ocquaye:
We're looking at curriculum. Integrating EDI equity, diversity, and inclusion into all Humber programs. We're talking about, from STEM programs, to Canadian justice programs, to early childhood education, trying to figure out how EDI can be better embedded into Humber's programs. Then we're also looking at the campus culture. We're trying to figure out how can we create a more inclusive Humber community for all employees and students. That's my elevator pitch for some of the programs I'm working on.
Charlene Theodore:
That's good. It sounds like exciting work. Shani, one of the reasons our listeners really love this podcast is because we interview people from different sectors, but there are lessons that can be really applied universally. The way I see your work and the structure at Humber and the work that you're doing in implementing the strategic plan is what it really is, is that you have to drive constructive collaboration in a complex organization with interlocking departments and communities to really produce sustainable progress and creating a healthy, productive, inclusive environment in terms of just the strict workplace environment in the overall workplace culture. I think that lesson applies to mid, to very large law firms, also applies to the business sector, financial sector. It's still the same building blocks even though you're in academia. What I'd love to know is, can you share any advice or lessons that you've learned for, really, the collaborative leadership process that it takes in a large organization like Humber?
Shani Ocquaye:
Sure. I was fortunate in that when I arrived at Humber, they actually already had a 60 person EDI Taskforce who had been put together to be able to drive the development of this institutional framework. This framework has people from all levels of the college, all different departments and faculties. You have support staff, you have vice presidents, you have deans, associate deans, directors. You have just about everybody, [inaudible 00:06:00] representation from all levels of the college in this EDI Taskforce.
Shani Ocquaye:
The collaboration's built in because you have this EDI Taskforce meeting on a monthly basis as a group, but also in their sub-working groups to be able to drive change in those different program areas that I spoke about earlier on. That's one of the biggest successes, I think, that Humber has had in putting together this EDI Taskforce, and making sure that this wasn't a framework that I was sitting in the back office with maybe a couple people from the Center for Human Rights drafting on my own, and then presenting it to the college. But rather this document, this framework and strategy we're working on already has that collaborative piece built in by having that taskforce, who's working on the different pieces and folks from different departments being able to come together to develop and implement this massive project.
Charlene Theodore:
That's really good to hear, because we've talked before on this podcast about several things. Number one, EDI, it's not a committee project. It's not strictly the rule of whatever your, your ERG or your black employees committee or indigenous or LGBTQ employees committee. But we also talk about it has to be adopted at the top, but it's also important to have accountability and engagement sprinkled throughout the organization. Everyone from admin to leadership and in between getting involved really speaks to, if you want this to be adopted organization-wide, you have to get people engaged organization-wide. I think that's a really valuable and creative way to go about the implementation of that.
Charlene Theodore:
Another thing we've talked about on this podcast is how to ensure those who serve on committees, those committees I mentioned, or Employee Resource Groups, they're often racialized employees or members of equity seeking groups, by definition. We've really focused on how they're appropriately rewarded and supported, in addition to some of the additional labor that comes with being part of those groups. What are your thoughts on mental health support for those involved in these efforts who may find themselves exhausted or emotionally impacted by the work?
Shani Ocquaye:
Both of our Employee Resource Groups, as well as our EDI Taskforce, we do try to build in capacity building and providing that support through those capacity building pieces. It's not just focused on trying to advance EDI throughout the institution, but also how are we building up the individual members and how we recognize the labor that's being put into this work. One of the ways that Humber is trying to ensure that we're providing appropriate support to the folks who are part of our Employee Resource Groups, specifically our Black/African Employee Resource Group is that following the verdict in the trial of Derek Chauvin. We knew that it was quite triggering having to see daily on the news that trial play out. We reached out to a local yoga studio that does trauma-informed yoga, and we offered a session to our Black/African employees as part of the employee resource group.
Shani Ocquaye:
We took an hour out of the work day last week to be able to have that yoga session that was focused on healing, restoring. Wasn't necessarily to be able to speak about what was going on, but rather just a place for folks to be able to do a little bit of healing physically, emotionally, spiritually, through that trauma-informed yoga session. That was just a quick example. Those are the kinds of pieces that we do try to integrate so our members don't just feel as if they're being constantly expected to push the boulder up the hill and there's no support being provided for them.
Charlene Theodore:
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I think people have two minds in terms of how they talk about the trial. Some people want to say the George Floyd trial, some people want to say the Derek Chauvin trial. My practice is, the person is on trial is Derek Chauvin, I think his name needs to be heard because he's the one that did it. But to be clear, we're talking about the Derek Chauvin trial for the murder of George Floyd. I appreciate that approach, because what I personally was looking for, it's almost like coming full circle, right.
Charlene Theodore:
I personally, in the OBA spoke out publicly about the lack of support and acknowledgement within organizations and within workplaces for their black employees, after the murder of George Floyd. That cannot be separated from this process, right, the end of the criminal justice process for the man that killed him. It's good to see that targeted support, specifically for employees who are most emotionally impacted be offered by the institution.
Shani Ocquaye:
I just want to give a quick shout-out to, it was the Center for Human Rights that offered that trauma-informed yoga session and the Director of the Center for Human Rights, my boss, is actually a black woman. Being able to have a black woman as the director of the Center for Human Rights, allowed her to be able to have that lens to recognize this is a full circle moment and the Black/African employees needed that support. Often time, if you don't have black folks in those key positions throughout the organization, folks aren't necessarily going to be able to have that lens to be able to recognize that these are key moments where employees do need support. I just wanted to acknowledge that it wasn't happenstance that the institution was able to provide the support, but having a black woman leading the Center for Human Rights, I think, was instrumental and her recognizing that need for black employees.
Charlene Theodore:
That's amazing. That's awesome. It will come as no surprise to you to hear me say, it's been a rough year. It's been a rough year. It's been a rough year and a half. Because this has been your work before and after the globalization of Black Lives Matter and the racial reckoning that's happened all around the globe with respect to anti-black racism, what are your resources and techniques to protect your own wellness and combat burnout?
Shani Ocquaye:
I'm passionate about my work. I'm excited to come to work, but I also need to recognize that I have to put boundaries in place so that I can continue to do this for the next 20, 30, 40 years. It's difficult as a young person, a young lawyer, it's difficult to be able to negotiate those boundaries with employers. Depending on the organization, [inaudible 00:11:54] is important showing a willingness to put in those long hours is really important. But for me, I know that physically, I cannot put in 12 hour days, seven days a week and still be okay, particularly once you're doing equity work.
Charlene Theodore:
On this subject matter in particular.
Shani Ocquaye:
Exactly. The work is triggering all the time. Being in it 24/7 is not healthy for anybody, but specifically as a black woman it's not healthy to be doing this work 24/7. For me, trying to find days where I'm not working at all, or I'm not doing my nine to five role is important for me. Because I don't have kids, I can dedicate during the weekdays if I need to put in long hours. That's a possibility for me, because I don't have other responsibilities to tend to during the workdays. But then I do try to carve out on the weekends time for me to be able to heal, restore, breathe, relax. I think that's really important for young people to hear, because I don't think that we get to hear that enough.
Charlene Theodore:
Yeah. I mean, I've also gone through this pandemic as a lawyer on my own, single, living alone, disconnected from friends and family. I think that I appreciate that advice, that call out to young lawyers in terms of setting boundaries. I think my view on it is, it's about setting those boundaries now or paying the price later, right, and your ability to set those boundaries. It's also a way to take a look at the organization you're working for based on the success of being able to establish certain boundaries, especially in this time of a pandemic, but I would say to young lawyers, you don't have to do it alone, right. That is when you reach out to other lawyers to discuss how to set boundaries, even help me, take a look at this email that I'm going to write to my boss. What do you think this is?
Charlene Theodore:
I would encourage young lawyers to reach out for support where that is concerned and young lawyers, lawyers of all ages, especially during the pandemic have caregiving responsibilities, right. Whether it's for children or parents or siblings, we're all carrying more than the normal share of caregiving responsibilities in some capacity. I think that to really set those boundaries and establish [the 00:14:07] routines and lean into community for support that they need, because we've got to make it on the other side of this in one piece. We've talked about joy and empathy as a foundation of workplace culture. When we talk about wellness and we talk about leadership, I found it really interesting when I found out that you've been involved in developing empathy training for law students. Why is that important for lawyers in the making, soon to be lawyers, to receive this education so early in their career journey?
Shani Ocquaye:
A couple of years ago, I did work with organization and we worked on empathy training, delivering it, not only to law students, but also to legal professionals. I do think there's a time and place to be able to talk about empathy with law students at the beginning of their careers. Talking about being able to build stronger, more meaningful relationships with both their clients and their colleagues, but as I've continued on in my career and my journey, I've moved a little bit away in talking about empathy training, because empathy training is focused more on the individual.
Shani Ocquaye:
It's important that we recognize also the systems that our clients operate in. Even when I was developing that empathy training, I had to push back on my boss a bit to be able to make sure we weren't just talking about that interpersonal relationship, but we were talking about privilege, we were talking about systems of oppression, we were talking about racism and oppression too, because if we speak about empathy without that context, then we're just talking about individual relationships and that's not enough.
Charlene Theodore:
What does empathy training look like for you now?
Shani Ocquaye:
Empathy training, for me, right now actually would be called rather anti-racism training. It's not to say that we can't talk about empathy within that training. It's not to say that we can't talk about building strong interpersonal relationships, trying to understand others' lived experience. But I think talking about anti-racism training is a bit more descriptive in terms of making sure that we're centering the systems that folks exist in, because we can talk about individuals in a vacuum, and I think sometimes if folks aren't careful, empathy training can begin and end with, "I feel for you, I care for you, Charlene." and nothing more than that.
Charlene Theodore:
Okay. Continuing on the topic of the very long year it has been, the calls for justice and meaningful change that came out of the Black Lives Matter protests, we've seen a few different responses. Many organizations have issued public statements of support. We saw, I would say, an increased corporate presence during Black History Month of this year. On its face, it can be seen as an encouraging sign, because it could demonstrate the extent to which organizations recognize that social responsibility is key to sustainability in terms of workplace culture.
Charlene Theodore:
It also could on its face, demonstrate a long overdue recognition of the particular way in which racism manifests itself for people of African and Caribbean descent across the diaspora, meaning anti-black racism. It could also be a recognition that get another long overdue recognition that this actually matters to not only their employees, but to their clients and customer base. But you and I both understand that these statements amount to very little if they're not backed by action. What are some of the ways that organizations can signal a genuine commitment to equality, diversity and inclusion in your opinion?
Shani Ocquaye:
I think in short, organizations need to put their money where their mouth is. It's not just about in February parading out the three black employees that they have in an organization of a hundred people or inviting a great black guest speaker to come speak in February. There needs to be more than that. For Humber this year, we've actually tried to move beyond talking just about Black History Month in February. Instead, we're trying to focus on black heritage 365. Many organizations are following that trend. The whole point of it is that we need to be speaking about anti-black racism. We need to be celebrating black folks every single day of the year, not just in February. In terms of signaling a commitment to EDI, I think, recruitment, retention and advancement or promotion of black employees at all levels of the organization is a start.
Shani Ocquaye:
In law school, as a young lawyer, I saw that in my first couple of years, I noticed that the law firms were starting to shift focus and they were recruiting a lot more black students to join them. You had, at the entry level, you had a lot of black folks, but when you went to look at their mid-level employees or their senior partners, you wouldn't see that much diversity in terms of black folks being partners at large law firms. I get partnership announcements from different legal publications talking about the different folks who have been promoted to senior partner. I don't see folks who are looking like me in those publications. The recruitment piece, I think, it's happening a little bit, but in terms of the retention piece, keeping those black folks and then promoting them to the higher levels at the organizations, I don't see that happening really.
Shani Ocquaye:
But then beyond that, I mean, recruitment, retention, that's the diversity piece or having a diverse workforce, but in terms of the inclusion piece, that one's a bit trickier to unpack it and figure out, and I don't necessarily have the solutions to offer, but I think that organizations really need to be looking at, do black folks feel as if they fit in the organization? Do they feel as if they belong in the organization, are they constantly navigating and dealing with microaggressions in the organization? Do they feel like they have to take golf lessons to be able to better interact and better relate to their colleagues? Those kinds of pieces in terms of making sure the workforce is inclusive for black folks, I think, is another way for organizations to really put their money where their mouth is.
Charlene Theodore:
That's the deeper work. Based on, again, your experience working with Humber now on year four of its five-year strategic plan, I'm going to toss you a hypothetical question, some hypothetical advice for hypothetical listeners. Let's say, we're now in, we're recording this in May of 2021. The death of George Floyd has happened. We've had a number of black and indigenous people die at the hands of the police over this pandemic, racial inequities in our social systems and healthcare have been exposed.
Charlene Theodore:
Finally, we've come, again, I would say full circle to the conviction of Derek Chauvin for George Floyd's murder. On the day that that conviction happened, another young black child was shot and killed by the police. One of our listeners out there is an organization that has just started. They've done nothing other than put out the statements with the rest of their peers, but they haven't done any internal work. Based on your experience in terms of really having mapped out and worked with the strategic plan, what would you suggest as a starting point?
Shani Ocquaye:
My suggestion in terms of starting point is figuring out a current state analysis. Who's at the organization? I'm at Humber, so it's a school, so we're looking at both who is at our organization in terms of students, as well as who's at our organization in terms of employees. When we're talking about equity seeking groups, we're not only looking at race, we're looking at intersectional identities. Gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, disability, religion even. But then not only that, looking at, if we're talking about employee engagement, student engagement, what are folks' experiences at that organization?
Shani Ocquaye:
Whether it's using an employment engagement survey to take stock of how are folks feeling at the organization, whether it's having town halls, listening sessions, to really figure out how folks are feeling about the organization with respect to EDI. It's not only about collecting that data and figuring out who's at the organization, but also taking the time to talk to folks, be able to figure out what's going on, on the ground at the organization at the entry level, at the mid level, at the senior level. I think those are really the first steps in terms of figuring out where the organization needs to go from there, because no two organizations are the same and what's a problem at one organization is a strength at another.
Charlene Theodore:
One of the things in my work that I've seen happen over and over, and typically, especially within the legal sector, I'm dealing with law firms and organizations that have actually dedicated some time and resources to various EDI efforts. There is a natural frustration when these things don't bear fruit. But what you mentioned is a common first step that's missed. Starting in painting a picture of your organization helps you set an actual measurable, achievable albeit ambitious goal. If you skip that first step, the likelihood of your initiative actually being able to bear fruit, be able to be measurable, be celebrated when you achieve those wins, you're starting a little bit behind in the first place.
Charlene Theodore:
You and I both know that there is not one tool. There is not one magic bullet that will get any organization, no matter the sector, where they need to be in terms of changing workplace culture, changing their systems and so they can have profitable, sustainable businesses with happy, diverse employees. However, I say that as a preface, because I do want to ask you what you see as the key piece or something that you in your opinion is really impactful or really strikes you as the pivot point for really transforming those good intentions that we talked about earlier into actual high impact outcomes in workplace equity. For the sake of the fact that there's no one size fits all cure, if you want to mention one, two or three, feel free.
Shani Ocquaye:
First, I think folks have to be deliberate about the outcomes that they're seeking to achieve. Once you get that current state analysis happening, you know what's going on in the organization, no one has stumbled upon an inclusive organization. You don't just stumble upon an equitable organization. You have to be deliberate about the outcomes that you're trying to achieve. You have to plan it out. That's exactly what Humber's institutional framework and strategy is about. It-
Charlene Theodore:
Doesn't happen organically. [crosstalk 00:24:15].
Shani Ocquaye:
It really doesn't. This isn't do a couple hours of extra work one day and suddenly you have a inclusive organization. I spend a lot of my day working on work plans, to game plan exactly what strategies we're going to be implementing, what activities we want to implement to get to our goals. In our work plans, we have clear metrics about what we're trying to achieve. Being able to work towards those outcomes, knowing exactly what outcomes we're trying to achieve and working towards those, I think is an important step.
Shani Ocquaye:
The other thing that I think is really important is about being real and transparent about gaps and weaknesses in an organization. A lot of organizations, they want to wait till they have a win, till they've achieved something, and then they're going to publish it. Then they're going to call the media or put it on their social media account. You have to be transparent from the start, not only with your employees, the internal employees, but to the external facing world, whether that's putting out your EDI plan, which Humber is going to be doing, hopefully this fall.
Shani Ocquaye:
Putting out your EDI plan so folks can see exactly what you're trying to achieve, what you're working on, what you've already achieved, where are the weaknesses or where are the gaps. All those different pieces being really transparent, I think, is really important. It holds the organization accountable which, I think, is another important piece.
Charlene Theodore:
Absolutely. I like to call it explanation without equivocation. The highlights and the lowlights are all in the bigger context of we're doing the work, as opposed to, like you said, waiting for the win and engage with your community. Again, related to that last question, I've seen and I know you've seen the up and coming generation of lawyers looking for workplaces that will value their talents and offer meaningful work. But they're also looking for workplaces that operate in a way that aligns with their values. What can organizations do to appeal to the ambitions and the idealism of this new cohort of lawyers that are coming into the profession?
Shani Ocquaye:
I don't know if this is going to answer your question directly, but I think it's important for organizations to hear for young lawyers, paying young lawyers fairly.
Charlene Theodore:
That'll do it. That does answer your question. Yeah.
Shani Ocquaye:
Young lawyers, we're excited. We're willing to do the work, we're willing to put in the long hours within reason, but it's not okay for organizations to be exploiting young lawyers, often young racialized lawyers for their labor. When I say, pay lawyers fairly, I don't mean pay them a great deal of money and then never let them go home. Paying lawyers fairly, young lawyers fairly for the work that they're doing. Allowing them to be compensated for the value that they're adding to the organization, I think, is really important for lawyers so that you don't get that burnout two, three years into their career. You don't have a retention issue with great talent, really brilliant young lawyers having to leave the organization for other places.
Charlene Theodore:
That's a really important point because, I think, when we talk about valuing and not exploiting young lawyers, we think about things like unpaid articles, right. Or things like lawyers getting into arrangements where they're maybe not making a salary. They don't have a living wage, but they're hustling for a percentage of some file that they're working on. But we don't often think about lawyers who enter the profession and making six figures or close to it, but cannot leave work. Cannot leave work, cannot see their families. Literally work themselves into precarious health situations.
Charlene Theodore:
I like that other side of the coin because, I think, that's an important reminder. Do you think that perceptions of the law, as a profession, of it being a rewarding career, do you think that that perception is changing amongst young people? Do you think young people still, I sound so old saying young people as a group, but I'm reminded myself I'm not part of that group anymore. But yes, I will ask you the younger Shani, do you think this old lady wants to know, do you think the young kids out there still see law as a rewarding career?
Shani Ocquaye:
There're a whole bunch of young people who are interested in pursuing law and we just opened a new law school in a city that already has two. There're definitely no shortage of young people who are interested in the law. There are multiple reasons why folks may consider law a rewarding career, but I think that regardless of the reason, I think, there are a lot of young people who are interested in law. What I think happens though is when young people do actually enter into law school and they start the beginning of their career, you will find a lot more disillusioned young people who are having it tough finding a job that pays appropriately.
Shani Ocquaye:
You just mentioned unpaid articling positions. That's a huge issue. You have young people who are overburdened with student loans, student debt. I went to a law school, a wonderful law school. Osgoode, tuition was $25,000 a year. I was able to secure a bank loan, but still a lot of money that I have to pay back. If I can be honest, there are a lot of folks, including myself, a lot of young lawyers who are having trouble reconciling their decision to go to law school and pursue a career in law with the financial obligations that they now have directly as a result of that.
Charlene Theodore:
Aside from the financial, what do you see as the main barriers to entry into the profession, particularly for black and otherwise racialized young people?
Shani Ocquaye:
I think a sense of belonging is really an issue that young racialized lawyers, young indigenous lawyers often have to grapple with. Entering into law school and not seeing faces that look like you. I had to think long and hard about which law school I was going to go to. Not in terms of what law school might accept me or what city, but rather which law school will I have a significant mass of folks who will look like me and who I'll be able to have a community with. Those kinds of pieces are really important. How isolating is it if you go to law school and you're only one person there, or you're one of two people there? That's one of the main barriers to entry and not having a community to be able to look to, to be able to have that support.
Shani Ocquaye:
But also when young people are trying to apply to get into law school, young, black, indigenous racialized lawyers, because there aren't a critical mass of folks out there who look like them, they don't necessarily have folks that they can reach out to who can mentor them, who can share that lived experience and can be able to help guide them along the way. That's why it's so amazing that Black Future Lawyers now exist and that black folks, racialized folks have a place that they can go to, to be able to hear directly from black lawyers, black law students about their experience, to be able to have those coaches and mentors that previously, maybe 10 years ago, didn't really exist.
Charlene Theodore:
One of the things I've noticed during my term as president, I've spoken, of course, to a lot of law students, law schools, law student groups. The Black Future Lawyers is a UofT program. I've spent a lot of time across the province and in other provinces as well, speaking to Black Future Lawyers type groups. People in undergrad that are already forming community to collectively support each other through the process of getting into law school and thriving in law school.
Charlene Theodore:
I think that a lot of those solutions are coming from young people themselves with the support of the institutions. I think you're going to see those results bear fruit in the next few years. Maybe class of 2025, 2026, we'll see some people come out of law school feeling more whole, feeling that they've had more of a sense of a community and their experiences will be different than ours were. Shani, as we close, I want to ask you a question I've been asking most of my guests on the podcast, at least all the lawyers. What changes would you like to see in the legal profession a decade from now?
Shani Ocquaye:
When I think of the legal profession, partially, because as a young lawyer, a significant amount of my time in this legal profession has been in law school at this point. I think of changes to law school, the law school experience, and drawing on what we were just discussing previously in terms of a place where law students can thrive and grow. There's a lot of work that needs to be done. I can't speak for law schools across Canada, but at least in Ontario there's a lot of work that needs to be done in terms of making law schools a place where all students can thrive. We look at the bell curve and grading and recruitment timelines and all those pieces. Law school can be a really difficult place to navigate, particularly for indigenous black racialized students.
Shani Ocquaye:
I know Ryerson Law is doing a lot of interesting and cool, innovative things to be able to make the law school an inclusive place from the jump, which is amazing. How can we develop our recruitment process using an equity lens? How can we make the recruitment process more equitable? How can we make sure that all students feel that they can bring their whole selves to the law school? I think that the law schools all have to do their current state analysis and figure out what's going on in their own institution and figure out how to better support students. I'm hoping, in short, that law school is a place where black indigenous racialized students, but not limited to them, for all students, I'm hoping that law school is a place where folks can thrive and grow.
Charlene Theodore:
I think that's a great point. My bias is obviously I'm a workplace lawyer. We're putting all of this work to shift and really change workplace culture in our profession and beyond. If the foundation is law school, for all intents and purposes, that's where the pipeline or is very near the beginning of the pipeline and the pipeline ends at work. Right. Talking and focusing on the changes you'd like to see starting in law school and being able to provide a better entry, a better welcome to the profession to law students who can then go on to do their best work and get into leadership positions and really flex their talent and their skills in better workplaces. That's something I'd like to see too in 10 years. Maybe we should set a date in 10 years and have a conversation about it and see how well we've done.
Shani Ocquaye:
May, 2031. I'll be there.
Charlene Theodore:
Thank you so much for joining us, Shani. It's been a pleasure talking to you.
Shani Ocquaye:
Thank you so much, Charlene.
Charlene Theodore:
I really appreciated what Shani had to say about the role of collaboration in constructing and implementing an EDI plan that requires us to be transparent, accountable and deliberate about outcomes. As Shani noted, you'd need to engage people organization-wide if you want your plan to be adopted organization-wide. How do we do that?
Charlene Theodore:
The work of advancing EDI should involve a cross-section of people in your workplace. Consider that the taskforce that Shani is managing has representation from across the organization, from every level and every department of her institution.
Charlene Theodore:
Recognize the labor, consider the capacity and support the wellbeing of members in your Employee Resource Groups. Be attuned to how related events or the work itself might take a toll. In Shani's workplace, there was an understanding that the Chauvin trial would have an impact on members of their Black/African Employee Resource Group and they responded with a healing activity.
Charlene Theodore:
If you don't have the diversity in your leadership to view the events and impact through an intersectional lens, reach out to and retain EDI professionals from that community to really determine what would be most helpful.
Charlene Theodore:
It's difficult for young employees, young, black, racialized, and indigenous employees, in particular, to enforce healthy boundaries in the workplace. Don't be that employer who exploits this inexperience and desire to impress by trampling these boundaries, forcing untenable work hours or not compensating junior staff fairly.
Charlene Theodore:
Empathy training has its place for helping students and lawyers develop healthy and productive relationships with colleagues and clients, but that understanding is only the beginning. It needs to be backed with anti-racism training that tackles the systems that often create insurmountable barriers.
Charlene Theodore:
Every organization is different. Take careful stock of yours through employee engagement surveys in town halls, in addition to data about diversity, not just at the entry level, but up through to leadership to really understand the experiences of your employees and identify gaps or problems.
Charlene Theodore:
We've heard this before, but it bears repeating. You need to be deliberate about the outcomes you would like to achieve with clearly defined metrics that will help you create useful work plans and introduce the right strategies and activities in furthering workplace culture change.
Charlene Theodore:
When it comes to internal and external communications, don't wait until you have a win to report on your progress. Being transparent means sharing the work you're doing, including where you may be falling short.
Charlene Theodore:
What Shani said about law schools holds true for legal workplaces too. Leaders should go beyond ensuring their recruitment process is more equitable, to really considering how they can make the actual experience of joining, thriving and growing within their organization more inclusive right from the jump.
Charlene Theodore:
Keep in mind that just as a celebration of black heritage should extend beyond one month, the work of fostering equitable, inclusive and diverse workplaces that work should be a 365 day a year commitment. We'd love to hear from you. Rate and review and follow a link in the episode description for additional resources.