Karlyn Percil, CEO of KDPM Consulting Group and Certified Emotional Intelligence & Neuro-Leadership Coach, shares research-based strategies and resources developed through the lens of intersectionality and lived experience that organizations can use to create a culture of psychological safety and address lack of representation in C-suites and board rooms.
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Charlene Theodore: Hello, and welcome to the Work that Works Podcast. I'm your Host, Charlene Theodore. Before I begin, I want to acknowledge that I'm recording this episode from the Dish With One Spoon Territory. I'm grateful to the original owners for taking care of this land, and I recognize the treaties that govern it. Knowing that our listeners span the country and are tuning in from other areas with their own treaties and unceded territories, I encourage you to continue learning more about the Indigenous history in your community. It is important history, and a story that continues.
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From truth comes transformation. How do powerful stories and lived experiences connect with robust research to inform inclusion strategies that will empower the achievements and advance the career goals of Black women, Indigenous women, and other racialized women in a workplace that works? I'm OBA President, Charlene Theodore, and this is the Work that Works Podcast. As a certified emotional intelligence and neuro life coach, my guest today, Karlyn Percil, is empowering more women to lead, L-E-A-D, to live and engage authentically daily.
As CEO of KDPM Consulting Group, Karlyn is taking this mission even further, equipping employers with the inspiration, intelligence and tools they need to cultivate a workplace culture where these big and bold dreams of women who lead can take root and come to fruition. Her passion for ensuring organizations have specific strategies that are designed through the lens of intersectionality and lived experience is one that I share. I'm looking forward to speaking with her about how organizational leaders can combine research with resourcefulness to address the lack of representation in our C-suites and boardrooms. Welcome, Karlyn.
Karlyn Percil: Thanks for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.
Charlene Theodore: Okay. So before we get into strategies and specifics, I want you to share with your listeners much of what I already know about your own background, particularly your finance experience, and how that informs and motivates the work that you're now doing a KDPM.
Karlyn Percil: Yes. Actually, everything came from 20 plus years, I would say, working in the financial industry. I actually started my career in the Caribbean, in St. Lucia, working for the very same bank. I know for a lot of folks, working 20 years in one industry is unheard of. Every time I tell folks, and especially young adults, they look at me like, "20 years?" Yeah. When I moved to Toronto, honestly, this was when I really started trying to find my place, I call it my battle to belong. To be quite honest, Charlene, when I first moved to Canada, I didn't know that this would lead me to actually creating and starting my own company.
One of the culture shocks I had was, first, I felt the imposed identity of an immigrant and what it means to be an immigrant, and I realized that there was a subculture around that, because I also met other Caribbean nationals, or the bank I worked for was very international, we had operations in Latin America, Central America, and North America, as well, lots of operations in the Caribbean, and we're all struggling with the same thing, whether folks wanted to hide the cultural identity, things that really make them unique.
I saw my Latino colleagues saying like, "I need to get rid of my accent. I feel like it's getting in the way, that's holding me back." I also have my Caribbean folks saying, "I'm so afraid to raise my hand. People are going for coffee." Even myself, I struggled to go for coffee, and I learned that there was a different culture that I needed to assimilate, too, but with that came a lot of shame and guilt, and I couldn't understand it. I couldn't understand what was behind that.
The more I got deeper into my career path, and understanding the Canadian culture, but also understanding the Canadian workplace culture, that led me to totally disrupting everything I grew up with, what my parents taught me, what I learned growing up in the Caribbean. Through that, by trying to handle and deal with the shame and also understanding this was a collective experience, led me to create... and I call them Lunch n Grow Sessions.
Sp to be quite honest, I was like, "Here's what I discovered. Who wants to come along?" And it became a thing, and folks started asking more questions. Long story short, I recognized that I wasn't the only one struggling to find my place to belong into work with, there were others. That led me to, eventually, after 20 years, after not being fed, tired of advocating for myself and my gifts and my brilliance, that led me to taking a different career path, and doing the work that I do today.
Charlene Theodore: So the other thing I was really excited to share with our listeners is about some of the work that KDPM Consulting Group is doing in the way of data and research, specifically as it relates to workplaces in any sector, the legal profession and beyond. Can you tell us a little bit about your research, what you're studying, how it will be useful, and when can we expect it?
Karlyn Percil: Absolutely. Doing this work, one of the things that we noticed recognized was, as organizations are dismantling systems of inequity, Black and other racialized folks are very exposed emotionally, because there's a cost to being seen, Charlene. Organizations acknowledging the fact that they, A, never had an anti-racism strategy or an anti-Black racism strategy means that I have had to struggle and suffer for years without acknowledgement of my full human rights, or even, in some cases, as my full humanity.
So psychological safety was something that I always been passionate about, because I felt like I did not have that challenger safety in the workplace, going to HR, racially-charged discrimination, I didn't have the language for it. We aren't even talking about White supremacy, we aren't talking about the impact of those systems on our lived experience in the workplace and in society at large.
So I started diving deeper in what is psychological safety, and I'm going to use the definition, actually, by Dr. Timothy Clark, social scientist. His definition is, psychological safety is a condition where human beings feel included, safe to learn, safe to contribute, and safe to challenge the status quo. Again, all without the fear of being embarrassed, marginalized or punished in some way.
Now, hello, for me, I felt like I would lose my job if I spoke up, or if I said that, "Hey, I don't feel safe, I don't feel like I'm included, I don't feel like I can bring my authentic self to work, because inclusion, it's about being seen, heard and respected for who I am as a human." So with the psychological safety study, what we are hoping to understand from the lens of the Black experience... In phase one, we're focusing on Black women, because misogynoir is still the elephant in the room.
For those of you who are hearing the term misogynoir for the first time, it's at the intersection of race and gender, where Black women experience... I call it the third bind, where Black women experience both sexism and racism at the same time, a lot of it is invisible, and that impacts not just how we show up in the workplace, but it also impacts our career and success, as well. So I will study... What we'll be looking at, Charlene, is through the lens of the Black experience, Black women, what are the barriers to inclusion and safety? What are the barriers to learn the safety, to contribute to safety, and to challenge a safety?
So for example, if I don't feel safe at work, is there a fair process? Is there a route that I can take where I will not be punished or feel further marginalized because of who I am? What that looks like, in an operationalized way, it looks like my HR understanding what racism is, understanding the historical context of stereotypes, and again, why saying something like, "I'm intimidated by you", or, "I feel threatened by you"...
There's a lot of language that we don't have the privilege of using, because we are in an unsafe environment, and if we do bring up those challenges, in some cases, we are on the receiving end of White tears, of being called a troublemaker. So what do we do? We conform with that, and we go outside of the workplace, which, again, there's an additional cost to us. When you look at it through the lens of, we're already being paid-
Charlene Theodore: Yes.
Karlyn Percil: ... less than White women... Think about it, Charlene.
Charlene Theodore: It's a huge burden.
Karlyn Percil: It's a huge burden. So we're hoping, in partnership with our researchers, Dr. Monique Herbert and Dr. Julie at York University, to really analyze the data and to come up with an inclusive and a really wholesome report on what organizations need to do from a systemic, from a cultural, but also from a behavioral norms perspective, as well, in terms of really advancing and creating safety Black employees at work.
Charlene Theodore: Well, there's a couple of reasons, Karlyn, that I think that's so powerful. Number one, as our listeners will know, there's a couple things that we as a Work that Works community, we that are committed to changing the culture of our professions know. One of those things is, while... of course, while we are working and actively working to have diversity in the leadership, more Black women, more racialized women, more Indigenous women, more people of Color in leadership, the people who are in leadership right now, they know that they've committed to getting equality, diversity and inclusion right.
I always say if you have the power to hire, fire or otherwise affect the lived experience of someone at work, doesn't matter what race you are, you have to get this right. It is just the cost of being the boss. That's whether you're in HR, whether you're a managing partner, whether you're a senior associate that's got students working under you. This is the new responsibility, and I think that the work that you're doing really hammers that home.
The other thing that we always talk about on this show is the fact that these solutions to get to where companies want to be, where law firms and in-house legal departments want to be, there's no one-size-fits-all solution. So that you put language around it, you've put language that is really amplifying intersectionality. The third bind, and that that research is so focused, is really a template for how to do these things right going forward.
Karlyn Percil: Exactly. Also, Charlene, that the great thing is that whether you're looking at another racial group, or you're looking at sexuality, psychological safety for all will allow you to continue doing that work without having to go back and start over again. Because from an organizational structure perspective, you're now looking at inclusion safety, not just for the majority group, but you're looking at inclusion safety for all based on how they identify and not just the imposed identity of race. Because that's also another... I guess, you can say trend, I would like to disrupt Charlene.
A lot of organizations are looking at what this culture or leadership change, organizational culture, through the path and the history, and as we should. But the danger of a single story that we see, that I see, and I'm pretty sure you've seen it, as well, there's a lot of work that is coming from our trauma. I should say solutions or strategies coming from our trauma.
Again, this is where organizations have an opportunity to look at us in our full humanity, not just our trauma. The perspective taken needs to come from... yes, from history, you have to understand, but ensure that you're not just looking at trauma and numbers and the underrepresentation, but you're also looking at what contributed to the overrepresentation of White skin and White leadership in the workplace?
So there's also a flip in terms of how we are taking perspective, and also looking at it through the lens of Black futurism. What does the future look like? If we want to retain Black excellence and professionals who would like to bring their full selves to work, I believe that organizations will really have to take a look at changing the workplace culture through those three perspective lenses to ensure that, again, they're creating space for the full humanity, and not just the very narrow definition of who we are through the imposed identity of race.
Charlene Theodore: The other thing that your work does is it highlights that the way that we've been doing things is giving us the exact opposite of what we want. So whether you're in the legal profession, you're an engineering, you're in tech, tech especially, I would think, you want diversity of voices, you want creative minds, you want to basically be able to set up an environment where people are safe, psychologically safe, they feel taken care of. What you're saying is that that psychological safety means that you can raise your hand, you can disrupt when you see from your unique point of view and what you have to offer, there's a different way of doing things, there's a better way of doing things, let's pilot that.
Intentionally, or just unconsciously, or systemically, forcing people to conform, or keeping us isolated and out of leadership, you're squelching those ideas, and you're not giving those ideas a chance to develop, and I think that's a really insightful way to look at it.
Karlyn Percil: Yes, absolutely. In short term, psychological safety is a culture of rewarded vulnerability.
Charlene Theodore: Hmm. Can you explain that a little?
Karlyn Percil: It's of rewarded vulnerability in the sense that... So for example, with Dr. Clark's four stages of psychological safety, so there's inclusion safety, where you feel seen, heard and respected. So for me, as a Black woman, if I don't feel seen, heard and respected, like you said, I can raise my hand and say, "Hey, HR, there's racial discrimination or maybe gender-based discrimination I went through. I want to challenge the status quo." Or, it might be exactly what you said, "Hey, I have a better way of doing this." I come full of experience, I want to make a suggestion, I want to raise my hand.
As a leader, you shouldn't be able to... Again, if you're operating from a full inclusive leadership competency lens, which also includes anti-racism, anti-oppression, you should be able to read the room and say, "Okay, so Karlyn's not raising a hand, but it has nothing to do because she doesn't have potential or she's not a top leader. From a culture or ethnic perspective, ha, let me understand that context before I assign that she's not top leadership material, she never speaks up, she never raises a hand."
So there's opportunity and there's space or individuals to be innovative, to be vulnerable, and this is where you truly get the best ideas. When we look at the future of work, especially where we are right now, during a pandemic, rewarded vulnerability, being innovative, saying the impact of our mental bandwidth and our capacity, if managers create that psychological safety, then we won't have to pause, we won't have to disrupt our workday to teach on a train, but we will just continue to learn it as part of our inclusive leadership culture.
Charlene Theodore: Got it. I love that concept. The goal for this podcast was to get people who have really mastered some one aspect, or one or more aspects that I consider to be really the key to sustainable evolution and change of workplace culture. I love it, as I'm having these conversations, and I hear people kind of echo each other, and there's common threads. We had recently published our podcast with Nori Campbell, who's lead counsel at TD Bank, and she gave a really helpful tip about that futuristic thinking.
What she said is when you're filling a job... Let's say Karlyn has left banking, and she's been there for 20 years, when you're filling her job, what she recommended that you do is you don't only think about the skills that Karlyn brought to the table, but you think about what do we need the future Karlyn to do five years from now? What do we want our workplace to look like five years from now? And search for that person. In order to avoid replicating the same model over and over and over.
Karlyn Percil: Yes, absolutely.
Charlene Theodore: Clearly, workplaces, in our profession and in other professions, are still guided. In spite of our best efforts, we're still guided by too narrow a vision of what a leader looks like. So given your experience, not just in finance, but working across corporate Canada in consulting, how is that inhibiting women's, particularly Black, Indigenous women's and racialized women's rise to leadership positions in the workplace?
Karlyn Percil: It was last year, I got that aha moment. Because there was a time when I did blame myself for not raising my hand and holding back and playing small-
Charlene Theodore: We al do it.
Karlyn Percil: ... and not dreaming-
Charlene Theodore: We all do it.
Karlyn Percil: ... big enough. But here's the aha moment I had, Charlene. Again, after the unfortunate murder of George Floyd, again, fueled by the system of White supremacy, I really had this aha moment, because I was bone-exhausted. I felt like that mental and emotional and spiritual exhaustion after I left the bank five years ago. The aha moment that came to me with that sometimes it's really not about playing small, it's really about self-preservation. Because the violence that you feel going into a space with majority of Whiteness is exhausting. It's exhausting.
I remember the moments of insomnia and crying myself to sleep, and not even wanting to go to work. You go back there, and you recognize that, wait, Karlyn, you shouldn't be beating up yourself. If anything, you are protecting yourself. Because I did not have enough for me to build up the mental and emotional capacity for me to raise my hand, and the cost of Whiteness at yet a higher level. Because it costs us something.
Charlene Theodore: It's bigger than us, it's bigger than any individual-
Karlyn Percil: Exactly.
Charlene Theodore: ... Black woman.
Karlyn Percil: Exactly. So for me, with that recognition and that realization, it also led me to really taking a closer look at what's really holding us back, and what's getting... why aren't more women raising their hand? Part of it is that... But again, what we're really excited to find in the research, also, is, what is getting in the way in terms of the challenge of safety? But one thing that we have seen, which there are other research that also speaks to that, is that racialized women, Black women, Indigenous women are not receiving the same level of sponsorship and mentorship as White women do. Even if the numbers are still low for Black women, as well, they're not getting the strategic insights and guidance, more of a, "Good job, Charlene. Yeah, you're doing great. Look at you. Oh, you're awesome." But then there's no real action behind it.
I don't have the full answer in terms of why, but we do know the pay gap is one. Because again, the cost of leadership, you're... yes, you do have the title, but do you have real power? And is there economic power, as well, that comes with it? Will the pay gap be bridged? The other thing is the lack of psychological safety or the lack of having representation. I say that with a caveat that representation isn't the only answer. It's not. Right?
Charlene Theodore: Well, it doesn't address the pay gap.
Karlyn Percil: It doesn't address the pay gap, it doesn't address White supremacy as a system, it does not address the overrepresentation of Whiteness in the workplace. But, what I have seen and what we are seeing is that if organizations create incubators of inclusion and psychological safety... It can look like specific programs for Black women and Women of Color, it can look like pairing them with specific sponsors, but also, those sponsors need to be trained in anti-oppression and anti-Black racism, because what we're hearing, as well, especially for those who are part of ERGs or specific programs, that those executive sponsors are part of the problem. They are part of the problem, because again, they're reembedding the very same inclusive leadership strategies, or maybe coaching techniques that they got from their executive coach, who also happens to be a White person.
Again, sometimes it's not intentional, but when you look at truly create an inclusive and psychologically safe workplace is, it begins with taking a look at the entire system, the entire decision making points, and also asking yourself, as an organization, if I want to bring Charlene in, did I do enough to ensure that she will have psychological safety? Will she be protected? If she comes across with any kind of challenge when it comes to challenge of safety, is there a free process? Is there an opportunity for her to feel supported, for her to feel seen, for her to feel respected and valued for who she is? Honestly, a lot of organizations don't do that deep work, Charlene.
Charlene Theodore: Well, and because it's not about... Like you said, representation is not enough. As I always say, you have to finish the thought. So when you're going on that hiring boom, and hiring queer people, Black people, Indigenous people, and intersections all in between, once they get there, they need to be able to be in an environment where they can flourish and do their best work, especially in law. Our industry is all about what we generate in our minds. Legal arguments, creative ideas.
The majority of people may not think of law as a creative industry, but it is. You use your intellect to change the landscape of your practice area, and sometimes the country every day. So it is really key, as you say, for, again, not just to welcome the men, but to ensure that our workplace structures will allow them to thrive.
So now we're going to get to a topic that I feel like we've been talking around and haven't named it, so I'm excited to talk about it, and it's the emotional tax. The reason why I like talking about the emotional tax is because there is so much about the lived experience, and I'm just going to speak specifically of Black women at work, that it is very hard to put a name to. Emotional tax one of the first times where I was like, that is what all of this is. Those two words, that encompasses so much.
So you've referred, in your work, to a Catalyst report that I've also read on the emotional tax for people of Color in Canada that's putting mental health and career prospects in jeopardy. I wasn't surprised by those findings. I want to know how you felt about them, and whether or not you think they've served as a wake up call for employers.
Karlyn Percil: Such a great question. Actually, I want to go back to something you said earlier around fatigue when it comes to collecting data. We have all these great reports and data. The catalyst report, when it came out, to be quite honest, I was very excited. I was still working at the bank, and I remember when I got the research that says over 53% or 50% of women of Color, Black women, especially Asian women, Latino women experience emotional tax, and that the cost of being on guard actually does impact our health and our career success. Again, tying back to economic success. For me, it's important to mention that, because bridging the pay gap is also a part of creating psychological safety in the workplace. What it did for me, Charlene, I felt seen. So you want to talk about inclusion and safety? I was like, "I'm not crazy."
Charlene Theodore: Yes, yes, yes.
Karlyn Percil: There is a word-
Charlene Theodore: It's like-
Karlyn Percil: ... [crosstalk 00:23:46].
Charlene Theodore: ... that's it. There is a phrase.
Karlyn Percil: Right.
Charlene Theodore: Yes. And it was just two words.
Karlyn Percil: Two words.
Charlene Theodore: I got those two words-
Karlyn Percil: Freedom.
Charlene Theodore: ... [crosstalk 00:23:58] Karlyn gave me my whole life.
Karlyn Percil: Freedom. Oh, my goodness.
Charlene Theodore: I was just like, "Oh, so that's what it's called." I couldn't have thought of these two words all these years I've been stressing about work, stressing about the job, stressing about how I present myself, what people think of me, angry Black woman stereotype. I just needed two words to really just unlock this feeling of validation.
Karlyn Percil: And excel, right? My bestie, I call her my bestie, Dr. Brandy Brown... Anyone who knows me knows that Brandy Brown is one of my best friends, virtual best friends. I stalk her online. She said something that literally changed my life, as well. Because when I was in that space of, okay, how do I bring from your village to the workplace? But how do I remove my armor so I'm not hurt or rejected when I am not fully seen and accepted for my full Blackness, for my full Karlyn?
She said that language can help us to feel seen and heard in a way that we have never feel seen before, and that's what that report did for me. But also, I want to go back to that fatigue around data, because another study... You know what the missing gap is, and why there is such a huge trust gap, and why as part of this work around dismantling systems of oppression in the workplace is really about earning the trust of historically marginalized groups? It's because we have all this research and all those stats, you can asking for business case, and now that you have it, what has really changed? What has changed?
So as much as it gave me this little bit of hope, I felt seen, I was on that high because I'm like, "Well, here's the stats." What do organizations do? They hire the best leaders. They have the best leaders in decision making seats running and different departments. We're going to solve this problem. Because what the businesses do, Charlene?
Charlene Theodore: They solve problems.
Karlyn Percil: They solve problems. Well, we're going to solve this problem, because it's innovation. We know that when we create a safe space, if managers, if great managers do their job well, and people leaders do the job well, it means that they have a high psychological safety score, they're always being challenged, they're always creating inclusion safety, so which means that their team will be a very high performing team. That's how to get high performing teams.
So for me, there this was high, and then there was this big letdown, which also told me that, so again, marginalized groups are still seen as not fully human. Society loves talking about our trauma, about numbers. The other thing that I... Again, I have a love hate relationship with stats and numbers from a brain based perspective. When we talk about numbers, we actually disconnect. We intellectualize, and Leesa Renee Hall, in a field trip, she talked about that a lot. She said that numbers and the stats and all those reports, what it does is that it gives us another avenue to intellectualize racism, or sexism, whatever that ism is, and that creates a further empathy, it actually widens the empathy gap.
Because numbers for the brain, you're not looking at human. This is why stories are important, this is why we need qualitative data, so that we can [rehumanize 00:27:09]. For us, it's really about reclaiming our wholeness from the diffraction of who we are as human beings. So with the report, yes, I had hope, then I went down. What I'm really hoping that organizations will take all this data that we have already is to take it and to create the change within the workplace, have conversations with those who have been impacted the most, and ask, what do you need to feel seen and heard and respected? Is the fair process working for you?
Working for the majority group means that you have been complicit, you're a gatekeeper for White supremacy culture in the workplace, and we have to be honest about that. This is not to shame anybody or to create more guilt or to create more fear, but we also have to acknowledge the reality. Because if we don't, and you're still looking at me and saying, "Hey, I'm a statement, Black Lives Matter." But your actions and accountability, it doesn't match what you're saying, then, again, that trust gap just keeps widening.
So a lot of this work is not about making me feel better, but it's really asking organizations, where is your integrity? And are you willing to live that integrity out for all humans? Or, are you still going to center Whiteness, or your majority group? And if you are, at least let folks know, so Black folks are not going to unsafe workspaces anymore. Because I think we're getting to a point, Charlene, I'm pretty sure you're there too, where we cannot make our health a side option.
I was going to say one final thing. When we create more inclusive... For example, when we include the experiences, and we look at Black excellence and Black brilliance, and not just our trauma, I just wanted to remind folks that White folks benefit, as well. Because right now, with the exclusion of our experiences, the deficit is not only coming from one length, we have folks on the receiving end, as well, who are not benefiting from fully understanding or even using the full inclusive leadership skills, or, in some cases, benefiting from the lived experience of people who are different from them.
Charlene Theodore: Well, that's the tagline of this podcast. Work that Works means work that works for everyone. If it doesn't work for everyone, it doesn't work for anyone. Whatever [inaudible 00:29:24] phrase you want to put, a rising tide raises all ships, if it works for the least marginalized among your staff and your stakeholders or your future staff, it will uplift and work for everyone. So I want to circle back to something that you said, because it is something that I've struggled with as a leader and workplace inclusion advocate, and that is the qualitative part of the work.
We had an earlier episode with [inaudible 00:29:52] that was really illuminating, lovely. I think, in a way, that's helpful for people that don't do this work full-time, she talked about different types of EDI work. The strategists, then she talked also about the storytellers. I want to talk about the storytelling piece. I will admit, it's truly where I struggle, and here's why. Because here is how I have seen it play out unsuccessfully.
I've spoken across the country about inclusion, about leadership, about anti-Black racism, specifically, and I'm often asked to tell my story. People are looking, like you say, for trauma. I choose not to, and here's why. Because in the past, when I've done it... I'm, at this point, a senior lawyer, a senior leader in the legal industry, and what I have found is when I share those stories, it does not create... Again, this is my experience in legal profession, I don't really see it moving the marker to creating systemic change in the profession.
If I'm sharing with White audiences, I get treated a lot nicer, there's a lot of empathy for me. But what does that do to the new lawyer that just got here from Trinidad or St. Lucia, and is in like a strip mall in Maltin and trying to earn a living, not being able to get referrals from colleagues, being discriminated against from other opportunities because they may have a Caribbean accent? What does that do for that person?
So my advocacy is about, because I come from a place of workplace layers, and because I come from a place of workplace change, this is... Like I say, if you have the power to hire or fire, you affect lived experiences of anyone in your workplace. So if you want to create these long term sustainable businesses, these are the actual strategies that you need to use. I tend not to talk about my stories. But I know, in the work that you do, that it is quite effective. So how do we avoid falling into that trap of trauma theater?
Karlyn Percil: Ah, so good.
Charlene Theodore: It's a lot. Listeners, this is not on the list of questions. Karlyn and I are just having a conversation, you're welcome to join us.
Karlyn Percil: I also struggled with that, because if you look at my work history, you will not find any stories about my racial microaggressions or any other while I was working with the bank. That was partly because A, I did not have the language, and also I did not have psychological safety, and I felt like I will be punished if I did share my story. Again, during that journey, what I learned from Brandy Brown is that not everyone has earned the right to hear your story. Because every time you share your story, it costs something, Charlene. Your story is sacred. There is a lot of trauma theater that's going on, and this is why every time I speak around combating anti-Black racism, I always share the perspective taking lens, meaning that when you're looking at the past, you don't need my story for you to create change.
Charlene Theodore: This is what frustrates me, I see it. You don't need to hear about that one time in articling and this dramatic experience to look and open your eyes and see there are no... virtually, you count them on one hand, people in leadership in this profession, that look like me. That is the source of my struggle and my frustration. Because as people who do this work, we want to be effective-
Karlyn Percil: Yes.
Charlene Theodore: ... and we want to be impactful.
Karlyn Percil: You can be just as effective and impactful by not sharing your story, you get to choose. Because no one knows what it costs you at the end of the day, Charlene, when you go home. When I'm doing this work, when I do choose to be vulnerable and open, if it calls, when it aligns, and I share my story, at the end of the day, I'm on the couch, I can't move, because I'm exhausted. But I cannot have every day like that day, because it means that I have to get up tomorrow and continue to work. Because I'm going to be Black until I die. I have to keep fighting until I die.
So it's important for me to prioritize my mental and emotional wellbeing. So, for you, again, every single individual, you are the author, you are the narrator, you are the curator of your story, and you get to decide how you want to share your story and how you want to use it. So it's perfectly fine for you to use a different avenue and not use your story. For anyone else who's listening, especially when I'm speaking to White folks, and especially those with power, you have that decision making, you have the opportunity for you to influence systemic exchange, this is where you can transfer some of that privilege and some of that power by taking on those reports and those stories that we all know that already existing, and use that to create the change.
This is where I see White folks could be better allies. Because by interrupting and by ensuring that we don't need to keep doing the trauma theater, this is where a great ally should come in. I honestly see a deficit in that area. We need more folks stepping up and saying, we already have the data, we already have the research.
As the legal community, especially Here in Canada, what can you be on, setting precedents on, what can you be the trailblazer on? This is where I see those with the leadership power can come and say, hey, let's change some of the systems, to your point, where that young kid who's coming in, who has an accent, who do not look like "the leader" in this legal space, what can we do to change the perception?
We have to raise the leadership standard, and we have to give leaders an opportunity to arise to that standard, because your barometer for inclusion of an inclusive culture should not be coming from the majority group. Because I have a lot of organizations say, "Oh, our last survey, we got 90%." Or, "We got an nine, we got an eight." Of course, you will score high. Your majority group, which is Whiteness, they are getting the benefit of psychological safety. They see themselves represented, so they feel included, they feel seen. That leadership job is attainable. I see someone who looks like me.
The brain is constantly looking for safety. It's constantly looking for, am I safe here, am I seen, I'm valid, am I heard? [inaudible 00:36:07]. Think of it as the number of mental jumps that you have to do in a day, overriding this innate... Think of it as... it's almost like a compass, and it's constantly searching for safety, and it's navigating. So for Black employees, we're constantly overriding that for us to, A, show up, for us to do the work twice as hard, manage the stereotypes that are being enforced or imposed on us every day, and I still have to go at home. By the way, before I get home, I might encounter racial discrimination again on the subway, in the Uber I go into, the food I go and buy. Maybe I go into the mall, somebody will be following me around. It does not stop.
So the workplace, really... I'm really hoping, Charlene, with this amazing podcast you've been doing, and the excellent tips and people that you've had on there, that the legal profession here in Canada can really stand up and be on the right side of history by leading the charge in the systemic change in this field. I have a little bit of faith.
Charlene Theodore: I have a lot of faith, actually, and this is from a confirmed cynic where subject of anti-Black racism is concerned. But one of the great things about doing this work in the legal profession is, I know the history of the profession. I know, even before I got into the question from the '90s, how much work we've done collectively, and we... lawyers never see the work of justice and equality as being done. We may be on different sides, politically, we may be literally on different sides on a case, but collectively, as a profession, we have done so, so, so much work.
So for me coming into the OBA presidency as this time, it was a privilege for so many reasons. But in terms of looking at the mammoth task before you, but also counting your blessings or your good fortune, I was met by a profession that had been doing the work, maybe had some diversity fatigue, because they weren't necessarily getting the results they wanted, but they were open to hearing, this is how we can do this work that we're doing in a different way and actually be impactful. It wasn't a hard sell.
I think the lesson that I would send to our traditional heteronormative White male leadership about using that tool of storytelling, if you don't get it right, I think it poses the greatest risk of undermining all of your efforts in terms of workplace culture. There is a difference between self-led, self-funded study by a Black female founder of a consulting group, working with academia and working with other Black women in a safe space is how their lived experience is, and to turn that storytelling into qualitative and quantitative data to benefit everyone everywhere and workplaces, as opposed to individual conversations where someone is encouraged, which may mean forced to talk about the difficulties of existing in this time as a Black person in the workplace, where they're most certainly, in legal workplaces, not in a collective of other Black people. How to use that storytelling as a tool, and not unintentionally use that as a weapon.
So that's a good segue into community. I'm proud to be the president of the OBA. I'll just do a little personal disclosure. When the pandemic hit, among all of the other things that were weighing on me was just how are we going to do this, and what would happen to our community of over 16,000 lawyers and judges and professors and law students who were now, all of a sudden, disconnected? What really surprised me is that the circumstances brought on by the pandemic, everything going virtual, did the opposite. It didn't disconnect us, it's connected us.
We leaned into mental health, which is something that we've been a leader in the field already. We leaned into community. We had [Ty 00:40:07] into the podcast, we had Minda on. And then she did a book club, we started a book club, we started a mocktail club. For our sober or non-drinking colleagues, we started a parent and caregiver network. We've really leaned into the existing community, and I think are going to come out of it, as an OBA community, stronger than ever.
One of the reasons why we are so focused on community at the OBA is that the support and the knowledge sharing that community offers is invaluable, and we're always seeking new ways to leverage it, to empower the success of all lawyers. I was wondering if you could talk a little bit more about your SisterTalk leadership academy, and explain to the listeners what it is, for those who don't know, and whether there are principles in play in SisterTalk that could be translated into fostering a more inclusive, engaging, and affirming work environment for women of Color. What are the lessons that we all want from SisterTalk?
Karlyn Percil: So SisterTalk, well, it's leadership network I created, because I did not... As much as we had it for a Black and Caribbean network in the workplace, there's still a perception at work that leadership does not include [inaudible 00:41:17]. We shy away from the stories of our lived experiences, because we just haven't had the space to create that, and we feel like we'll be judged if we show our full selves or bring our full selves to the table.
So since the top came out of this, I had joined so many different women groups and initiatives, but I felt it was very business card transaction. It was very like, "Oh, I'm Karlyn, I'm the Senior Manager blah, blah, blah." But there wasn't a real connection. It was networking, it wasn't community, and I really wanted a place where I can remove my armor. So I have met a few other women, racialized women on Bay Street, downtown Toronto, and I said, "Hey, do you want to have a girls' night?" Because I just really wanted to talk, without the ears of who I am, forgetting that title for a second.
Women came over to my house, and I talked about, what do you do when a lot of the work is riddled in shame. Because you know that you deserve so much more, you want to raise your hand, but you're constantly coming up against this wall, and sometimes it feels like a concrete wall, because you cannot push through it. Turns out, that women also struggling, and they had their own story.
Again, going back to the brain and the subconscious perspective, personal narratives, it drives our emotion. I'll give you an example. If I see you across the road, and you looked at my direction, and I wave, and I'm like, "Hey, Charlene," and you continued past straight, you did not even acknowledge me, immediately, the brain tries to assess what happened, and it records that as a memory, so that I don't make that mistake again, because that felt painful, because you didn't see me.
Rejection, it actually registers as physical pain in their brain, because the brain assumes that you rejected me, you didn't see me, so all of a sudden now, I'm creating this personal narrative, "Oh, Charlene doesn't like me." Oh, "What did I do wrong," blah blah blah. So all the stories, we store them. Until we bring them up to our consciousness for air, they unconsciously [inaudible 00:43:03] at work.
So from SisterTalk, what we learned is that there is so much strength in vulnerability. But again, from a cognitive perspective, we've all heard, don't bring your full self to work, you can't let your armor down. SisterTalk became a space for us to explore our humanity, SisterTalk became a place for us to put the armor down and be fully human. What we learned, as well, is that it was a shared vulnerability, and also which led to shed connection.
Some of those women, today, they have built such a strong base in terms of support and friendship. There are women who were still connected, we're still friends, because they met through SisterTalk. I guess the biggest thing that SisterTalk gave us was it really helped us to convert our cultural competency into cultural confidence.
By that, I mean as a way of exploiting our stories, we're able to talk about our upbringing and where we came from, our ethnicity. We explored who we are outside of the identity of race, and that led us to exploring a lot of those cultural isms that we didn't necessarily see as... I guess, you can say a plus or a win, we were able to see how we can convert that to cultural confidence. Because a lot of us, as we share our stories.
The story is like a window to the soul. So these are the few lessons we got from SisterTalk and what I took from that, also. It became an incubator for us to explore. For example, when the emotional tax research came out, I brought a group of women together, and we talked about it. And we talked about the story behind that emotional tax. What is the impact on our life at home, and how we lead in our community?
So this is where I also learned that, hey, a lot of my emotions are actually colonized. Because I was so unguarded of not being an angry Black woman, I minimized my expression of self. So we also got to a place where we understood how to explore more of our authentic self, how to take some of those leadership practices that are rooted in Eurocentrism, and convert them through our own ethnic and cultural language, which also has helped us to really hone in our authenticity in a way that it wouldn't be used against us, or in a way where we felt that we would still feel seen, heard, supported and respected for who we are.
Then I also realized that decolonizing leadership frameworks and giving racialized women more tools to understand how they can feel authentic in some of these Eurocentric-based leadership practices and examples.
Charlene Theodore: What I really love about SisterTalk is that I think we've come full circle to the beginning of the conversation, where I said, I know you, you know me, you know my family, and we've both been doing this work for a long, long time. I love that SisterTalk came about organically, and those are some of the most successful initiatives came from filling a need that you found in yourself, and that relied on building community as really like a foil to what we weren't finding at work.
I also think that as our workplaces continue to improve, to impart to the efforts of you and your company, and people like you, there still is that means for the SisterTalk leadership academy, places like the OBA, and those community spaces. I think that, in creating those spaces, it allows women to go out into the world and back into the workplace and continue to thrive. I see it as one big cycle, which I think is pretty awesome.
Karlyn Percil: It is. Also, it helps us to create the new definition of success. I often remind women, when I'm working with women, White women, women of Color, is that we have to ensure that we're showing up authentically as our full selves, again, in a way that honors that authenticity, because this is how we'll create the new definition of leadership and what professionalism look like. Because if we're all trying to fit into that very patriarchal base definition of success and leadership, it means that we're constantly outsourcing our belonging for system and for a workplace that will not refuel, or in some cases, reward us for that outsourcing about who are.
Charlene Theodore: So to wrap up, I'm going to ask you two questions, one about what we need to do now, and one about... we're going to circle back to futurism, Black futurism, Indigenous futures, futurism of great inclusive, thriving workplaces. So first question, what is your best advice for today's workplaces? What strategies can today's leaders use, right now, in terms of representation, and of course, inclusion in C-suites and boardrooms?
Karlyn Percil: I would go with understanding the level of psychological safety within your teams and within your organization, because that will help organizations to understand where they are, not just in psychological safety, but where you're having emotional fragility. Because when it comes to change in culture, you need the majority group to drive a culture forward. So also, yes, you need to understand the psychological safety for historically marginalized groups, but you also need to know the psychological safety for your White employees, as well.
Because, and I'm pretty sure you've heard it, too, the number one thing that we're hearing from this work is that there's a lot of White fragility, oh, I see emotional fragility, where self-preservation comes in, people go into the fear zone, and then now they're in the inaction zone, because they're prioritizing their emotional discomfort over the reality of racialized groups.
So for me, if leaders prioritize psychological safety, then you will know which teams are higher than others. What I mean by that if you learn a safety on your operations department, then you can strategically say, "Hey, this new inclusive training or this revamping of our value, well, we want to include anti-racism action, or coaching tip for managers." In the Charlene, Karlyn LLP, world, let's start in the operations department with team A.
So then you now understand how you're doing your culture change and shift. And then you can also measure that against the feedback that you're getting. Nine months or a year from now, you can remeasure your psychological safety. The first stage which is inclusion, safety, this is when you can truly get the reality of what those grips are going through, tie that back to your ERG, ensure that your ERGs are also at the decision making table, and also, majority of your focus...
If you're majority leaders, groups, teams in your work is White, majority of your work needs to be focused on the White employees, because they need to be the ones taking the action, they need to be the ones leading the charge. Yes, you will mess up. Again, this is where creating a culture of rewarding vulnerability is important. Because when folks mess up, it's not if, when they do, they can feel safe enough to come to team leader A and say, "Hey, I had a conversation with Charlene, and I just realized that I excluded her this language that we've been using as part of our meetings or our process improvement or whatnot. We need to change it."
Because you've built in that psychological safety, whether your employee identifies as White, as Indigenous, as Black, we can all challenge the system or the status quo within your organization with the knowledge that they will not be punished, because you have done the work, on a structural level, to ensure that there is psychological safety if you're coming from an Indigenous lens, a Black lens, or even a White lens, as well. So I think that would be the first place to start.
Because the danger I'm seeing right now, Charlene, a lot of organizations, because of... as a response to COVID-19 and the mental fatigue and the emotional fatigue we're all going through, they are putting mental health strategies in place. When I asked, do you have racially and culturally diverse mental health practitioners on your list as part of your training? Is racism considered one of the factors impacting the mental health of historically marginalized groups? A lot of them are like, "Oh, no. We didn't think of that." I'm not saying psychological safety is all the answers, but it is a starting point.
Charlene Theodore: It's a start.
Karlyn Percil: It's a starting point. Because it will help you to decide, especially on the challenges safety perspective, how can employees feel safe enough to challenge the status quo, that will now get you to one look at? You are. Your fair process, system. If you read your research, you know Black folks, Indigenous folks, we don't feel safe going to HR, what is the alternative? When we're working with employees, we have a list of racially and culturally diverse wellness practitioners, and majority of the folks on the employee assistant line or work based wellness program, Charlene, and I know it's not going to shock you, but anyways, they're a majority White folks. They do not have racially and culturally diverse. Something as simple as this.
So when we do training with an organization, the first thing we tell them is that, are you a racially and culturally diverse wellness practitioner? Is it easy for your racialized staff to access? Have you sent out an email with all the information? If you don't feel safe speaking to you, have you given them alternative avenues, including somebody outside of your organization, if you do not have racially and culturally diverse wellness practitioners?
Because as you're going through your work of dismantling those systems of oppression, you will be causing more racial harm. Not intentionally, but there is a cost of being seen and feeling seen. When you fully acknowledge my full humanity, it does something to me. I may not have the language to explain to you what that feels like, but just know that you might be causing and you are causing more harm.
So, prioritizing psychological safety of these employees by making the information accessible, making it easy for them to get to. Please don't make me beg for my humanity by not having someone who looks like me, because the very virtue of that you're saying, and you are supporting racialization as a system that continues to oppress us. So I really hope that organizations get that.
The second thing that I would say, leaders, people leaders, C-suite leaders, we need to revamp inclusive leadership strategies, equitable leadership assessment, which was created by Dr. Julie and Peter Trevor Wilson. Trevor is the author of How to Optimize Talent Based Human Equity. For me, with the equitable leadership assessment, Charlene, it takes into consideration not just knowledge of diversity, equity and inclusion, but also the application of it, and it's a behavioral based assessment that gives practical tips on what to do when it comes to reading others through the lens of human equity, meaning that you're seeing the full humanity.
With that assessment, what we have done is that we've also added an anti-racism coaching lens to it, as well. So we give leaders practical tips for them to, oh, if now I've gotten feedback, there isn't a fair process, what do I do? We tie in the psychological safety lens, less anti-racism to give them tips and tools in terms of how to navigate such uncomfortable situations. If you are an excellent leader, it means that you are uncomfortable, you're practicing vulnerability more than the average person.
Charlene Theodore: So discomfort is key?
Karlyn Percil: Key. If you're doing this right, you're uncomfortable, and you're afraid half of the time. But you don't run from it, you lean into it.
Charlene Theodore: So I do have another question, we've got to go to the future. Again, on that theme of being forward thinking. We started, at the OBA, with my presidency, an initiative called Not Another Decade, where we're throwing our hats over the fence, and we are setting an ambitious but achievable plan to really tackle inequities, overrepresentation and systemic racism in the justice sector. It was founded on the basis of the events of 2020, not just because of what happened then, but it forced us to look at all of the work that we've done as lawyers. It highlighted in spite of all this work, there was still work to be done. So we set a target for ourselves.
The initiative is unique because it'll last beyond my presidency, and we really want to read different headlines. We want the headlines about our profession in 2030 to look different than they did in 2020. So that's the marker I'm going to use for you. What do you hope that we will see in healthy, productive inclusion-focused, vulnerability-centered workplaces in 2030, 10 years from now?
Karlyn Percil: Hoo, I'm hoping that we're not seeing headlines around the numbers and the stats, but what we're seeing is how organizations, again, because they're a human equity-centered approach, where they're inviting humans to the table, we're actually seeing an eradication of, for example, our global Sustainable Development Goals, we're seeing poverty being eradicated, we're seeing workplaces actually aligning with the social issues that the customers they serve and the employees. We've seen not just the dismantling, but an eradication of it.
And then organizations, for example, the OBA... The OBA has now created a framework, because [inaudible 00:56:14] another 10 years, that framework is now added to this global database of humans using our brilliance, our skills, learning from the past to create a better future. I always think of White supremacy as power, over equity is power with. ESG goals are aligned, directly aligned. You don't need no business case to declare someone's humanity when it was a manmade creation of ideologies from colonization to capitalism.
We are examining the systems in the brave way, where we are not contributing towards the [deminision 00:56:54] of the environment and our climate and our culture, but we're actively working to ensuring that we make and we create a better world. I think that this will happen, Charlene. Because when I speak to the younger folks, when I listen to them on TikTok and I watch all of them, I'm constantly been educated. They are on it, and they're not waiting for the schools to teach them, they're actually getting their education from each other and directly challenging.
So I'm very excited for what they will also bring to the table. I think we are in heading the right direction, but we need to keep the momentum on, and I need White books to step it up, to carry the brunt of the work. Like you said, speak up. You've listened, you have learned. Part of listening is applying the knowledge of what you've listened to. So continue to stumble. As Leesa Renee Hall says, stumble bravely. This is what will make you an exceptional leader, and this is how we'll create a better world for the generations [inaudible 00:57:42].
Charlene Theodore: I love that. Let's all stumble bravely towards a transformative decade. I'm sure we'll talk before then, but I definitely am as excited as you are to see what things in both of our respective fields are going to look like in 2030.
Karlyn Percil: I look forward to continue supporting you, and congratulations, again, for your role, and I know that you will lead the charge in terms of doing great things.
Charlene Theodore: Karlyn's own battle to belong in subsequent EDI leadership have resulted in many affirming insights and invaluable lessons, chief among them the fact that no workplace outside of medieval times should call for a suit of armor. Everything in our conversation was gold, so these are merely my tip-of-the-iceberg takeaways for cultivating a culture of authenticity and inclusion. Your starting point is to recognize and appreciate the impact of lived experience and workplace identity, which means understanding the history of discrimination and erasure, the language and frameworks of exclusion, and the stereotypes that Black, Indigenous, and other racialized employees are fighting and guarding against daily.
Managers should be trained in how deeply ingrained stereotypes emerge and influence interaction and contribution at work in order to counteract them. Remember, Karlyn's example of telling a Black female colleague that she's intimidating or too passionate when she expresses a viewpoint? If you're thinking of safety in the workplace solely in terms of physical safety, it's time to give equal weight to psychological safety, of which inclusion forms a key component.
Inviting racialized employees to join and lend representation to a predominantly White team is not inclusion. Consider that an important part of inclusion is an opportunity to contribute to a group or project in which you're not in the minority, an experience that White employees regularly enjoy. Look at all your systems through an equity lens, and remember, as you're dismantling systems of inequity, it will take a toll, however inadvertent, on the psychological safety of employees who are feeling truly seen, heard and respected for perhaps the first time. Offer multiple mechanisms for feedback and mental health support.
There is no one-size-fits-all approach to creating a culture that makes employees feel safe to be authentic, safe to learn, and safe to speak. Karlyn is focused on the lived experience of Black women and misogynoir in the workplace. However, her work underscores the need for an intersectional approach to understanding why certain comments, workplace behaviors and policies are unacceptable, and will work against advancing overall psychological safety.
If someone isn't raising her hand in a discussion, a trained and informed leader will consider culture and context before deciding that employee has nothing of value to contribute. When all team members feel safe in challenging the status quo, you will hear about more of the issues and oversights, and also gain the real feedback you need to address them. It is an ongoing learning process. In crafting solutions, it's useful to put language around the problems you're addressing, like the emotional tax that takes a heavy toll on Black, Indigenous and other racialized employees, and the third bind that places an extra burden of systemically influenced fatigue, and structural discrimination on women leaders of Color.
As an organization focused on rewriting the narrative, you should be looking at more than the trauma of historically marginalized groups in the workplace. You should also look at how White leaders became dominant. As Karlyn said, we have an opportunity to look at our whole humanity, to change the culture, and retain excellence. Looking at stats in isolation can help us intellectualize, but also disconnect ourselves from the real impact of racism. So, lived experiences can be useful in closing the empathy gap, but remember that you're not entitled to any one story. Demanding that kind of sharing can be exploitive and damaging to someone's mental health. If you're looking at an all-White male management team, you don't need to hear a tale of racial trauma to identify what is the obvious problem, or justify action moving forward.
Many Black, Indigenous, and other racialized women are not receiving the same actionable mentorship and sponsorship that their White counterparts are. However, before you remedy this, consider that your White mentors likely learned their coaching methods from other White leaders. If they're not being trained in anti-Black racism, trauma and psychological safety before mentoring Black employees, they should be. Listeners, when it comes to equitable leadership, understanding and implementation are equally important. As Karlyn knows, if you're doing it right, you're uncomfortable half the time. So I encourage you, lean into it. Lean into that discomfort, learn, and then act. Stumble bravely. (silence).