Beyond an aspiration – more than a memo, statement or story – fostering workplaces where people act inclusively is ongoing work. Sought-after organizational consultant and author of The Ethical Sellout, Lily Zheng shares insight into where organizations most often fall short in achieving their desired equality and diversity outcomes and provides a practitioner’s view on the strategies and approaches apt to have the most impact.
RECOMMENDED READING
Checklist for Assessing the Strength of Your Workplace Inclusion Strategies (Member Resource)
The Ethical Sellout: Maintaining Your Integrity in the Age of Compromise
Gender Ambiguity in the Workplace: Transgender and Gender-Diverse Discrimination
Work that works: Equality, diversity and inclusion
Have feedback? Email us at pod@oba.org with your thoughts and comments.
Charlene Theodore:
Hello, and welcome to the Work that Works Podcast. I'm your host, Charlene Theodore. Before I begin, I want to acknowledge that I'm recording this episode from the Dish With One Spoon Territory. I'm grateful to the original owners for taking care of this land, and I recognize the trees that govern it. Knowing that our listeners span the country and are tuning in from other areas with their own treaties and unceded territories, I encourage you to continue learning more about the indigenous history in your community. It is important history and a story that continues.
Dawn Marchand, Lawyers Financial:
At Lawyers Financial, your satisfaction is our success. It's not that money doesn't matter. Financial it's right there in our name. But we're not for profit, and that gives us the freedom to give you breakeven pricing on insurance and investment solutions and exclusive rates on home, auto, life, and disability insurance just to name a few. At Lawyers Financial, we focus on you so you can focus on your family, your firm, and your future. And that sounds like success by any measure.
Charlene Theodore:
Does your organization's commitment to furthering equality, diversity and inclusion start and end with training? If so, you may be changing individual hearts and minds, but failing to enact substantial and sustainable change. Our guest today often hears from her clients that they hope equality, diversity and inclusion will arise naturally and organically out of the collective goodness of people's hearts. It's a wish a lot of people have. But what we're going to talk about today is how that wish just doesn't cut it. I mean, you wouldn't use that same philosophy for any other business outcome, so why use it for EDI? Today we're going full throttle and taking a no nonsense look at what the follow-up steps are to ensure that good intentions lead to enduringly inclusive, productive, and effective workplaces that work for all of us. I'm OBA president, Charlene Theodore, and this is the Work that Works Podcast.
Charlene Theodore:
This podcast is all about the how when it comes to driving much needed change in the legal workplace. So I'm very excited to be joined today by a renowned expert in creating healthy, inclusive, and innovative workplace. One whose no nonsense approach is rooted in pragmatism and really walking the talk. Lily Zheng is a sought after speaker, executive coach, and organizational consultant who has contributed to dozens of media outlets, including The New York Times, Harvard Business Review, Entrepreneur Magazine, and Psychology Today. She's also the author of two extremely timely and on point books, The Ethical Sellout and Gender Ambiguity in the Workplace. These books are must reads for anyone invested in equality and inclusion. She's a trailblazer, changemaker, and conversation starter. Just follow her on LinkedIn to see what I mean. She has a unique and valuable perspective to lend to our ongoing discussion on workplace reinvention. Welcome Lily. So excited to talk to you today.
Lily Zheng:
Yeah, thank you so much for having me.
Charlene Theodore:
So Lily, many of our legal workplaces in Ontario are really looking to effect a culture shift. Now, we come from a very traditional model, but that's not to say that we don't have an eye towards vitality and innovation. We do. We're striving for it. So I want to start off with a couple of broad questions for you before we get into some of those details that will really help our listeners. Why in your opinion should leadership in the legal profession specifically care about equality, diversity and inclusion?
Lily Zheng:
Okay, so starting off with the standard, why should we care about DE&I question, this is the question that I like answering firstly, because I think there's a canned answer that we tend to get a lot, which is diversity is good for performance, diversity is good for creativity and productivity and increases the bottom line. And that's the sort of answer that you're going to get anywhere you Google DE&I. Like why should I care about diversity? When I talk to clients, I'm very real with them about how it is diversity, equity and inclusion is going to benefit their industry, and that means looking in specifically to how their industry is going to change in the next 50 years.
Lily Zheng:
And where I like to focus is on a few things. I think focusing on demographic change and the necessity of updating our model of work and updating our workplaces to support newer generations of people is a very pressing and genuine need. When you look at the data on, for example, Gen Z, the new generation of workers heading into the workplace, you see that there's an overwhelming desire, firstly, for workplaces to get it on DE&I. There's a much higher bar, and more importantly, there's a desire for workplaces to take a public and visible stance on social issues, including issues of diversity, equity, and inclusion. And so just from the angle of needing to support the workforce of the future, DE&I doesn't just become a nice to have that will make your company better, it becomes something that's necessary for the long-term survival of your firm and your industry. So that's one thing.
Lily Zheng:
I think also just looking at how public perceptions are shifting both in terms of the generational shift and beyond that, I think people have kind of had it with corporations and with professionals in general taking a apolitical approach to the workplace. I think we're seeing from all walks of life a greater desire for corporations to take more of a proactive approach in talking about and potentially resolving societal issues. And what that means is that your customers are going to want to see more action. The next generation of employees are going to see more action and your current employees are going to want to see more as well. And all of these factors are pushing every industry to reconsider how it's considering DE&I. And I find that to be a much more compelling argument than if your workplace is diverse, you'll make 10% more revenue next year, which sounds great, but we've been using that argument for decades and that hasn't necessarily driven the shift that we've wanted to see.
Charlene Theodore:
Yeah, I think you make an important point. How does the objective of moving beyond the incentive that we relied on for so long that somehow diversity will increase your bottom line, how does moving beyond that interact with maybe other elements of really an ideal workplace culture, a vibrant, healthy, productive workplace where people are engaged and able to do their best work?
Lily Zheng:
So I like that question. I think the question itself is getting at what I see as two competing reasons to do this work. And those competing reasons are you do something because it gets you more profit and you do something because it creates a vibrant, healthy, productive workplace. And so if I may, I feel like you've already answered the question really effectively with just how you framed it, which is like we need to go beyond thinking just about revenue as the goal of this work. I think when you start to dig deeper and ask yourself, why is it that diversity is genuinely important? You get into a space where you are thinking about how your workplace will look and perform and put products out into the world if it is more diverse.
Lily Zheng:
And the ideal workplace isn't one that just makes more money, it's one in which you have better ideas, it's one in which you have healthy, positive conflict that results in newer ideas getting put on the table, it's a workplace in which people feel fulfilled, and a workplace that provides stable work and resources for the community around it. Like there are all these things that we project onto our workplaces beyond just the profit margin that I think we need to take more seriously. And the fact is our employees are taking these concerns more seriously. This is what people want from work. Nobody aspires to go into a workplace with their life goal of, "Man, I really want to make my company more money." That's why I work, right?
Charlene Theodore:
Yeah.
Lily Zheng:
To increase some billionaires bottom line. People really want to be fulfilled at work. And that means if we do want to attract the best talent, then we need to make sure that our talent is thriving in the workplace. And that means we need to be looking at diversity and looking at all of these factors with an eye towards how to treat all people in our workplace more equitably and inclusively to create environments where people want to be in.
Charlene Theodore:
Yeah, I love that point, Lily. And I think, again, I'm going to circle back again to that 50 year outlook that you referred to at the top of our conversation because one of the things that I'm trying to do is have open conversations about that balance and with sustainability as that center point. And so I'm not trying to deny that law firms are businesses and money and return on your investment of your employees is a significant driver, but when you think about it in a sustainable way, let's take mental health for example. If you were just thinking about, "Okay, I'm hiring four junior lawyers. We've got this huge assignment. I'm going to be able to work them for X number of hours and they're going to be able to get this amount of work done and we're going to be able to build this much."
Charlene Theodore:
But if you spread your beauty beyond that in a more sustainable way of thinking, you will want to pay attention to some of the things that we're dealing with in the profession now such as burnout, some of the problems with the billable hour model, our reluctance to really talk about mental health in our profession. And the other motivation that's going to open up for you is to say, "Look, I've got four great smart lawyers and I want to be able to get their best work out of them, but I'd rather be able to get their best work out of them for 25, 30 years as opposed to five years because the way that I'm setting up the workplace means that they are just working nonstop and they have no time for family." And so I like that in your answer, you're kind of recognizing that there are other drivers. And I think that speaks to not just the profit, which we're never going to be able to get people to take more, but to the sustainability of that bottom line, or if money is one of your drivers.
Lily Zheng:
So here's something that I like to add. And I'm really glad that you brought up return on investment because when I talk to clients about ROI, something that I bring up is we are applying this standard of ROI unequally. We always ask what the return on investment is for bringing in one more black staff member, one more women, one more member of the LGBTQ+ community. We never ask ourselves the loss that we're incurring by only hiring people that look like us, right? We are never asking ourselves the deficits of the status quo. We're only placing the burden of proof on minority communities to somehow prove that they're adding value to our organization without ever asking ourselves if the way things are currently is actually okay and if we're actually okay with that. And that's not okay, right? We can't use ROI just as a selective tool to gatekeep people out of our profession.
Lily Zheng:
If you are going to be talking about ROI, which I think is a perfectly okay thing to talk about, I'm going to challenge you to reflect internally and say, "How much money are we losing by being a white boys club? How much money are we giving up by not appealing to our customers and clients of color? How much money are we losing by not engaging women in the workplace?" And when you ask those questions, you'll quickly find out that diversity pays for itself, right? Like diversity removes some of the inherent challenges of having a company where everyone looks and thinks just like you. And that's something that most, I think, managers and leaders never think about. They only apply this high standard to the people coming in without ever taking a retroactive look at what it would look like to apply these high standards to everyone that's come before.
Charlene Theodore:
That's a really profound point. I think you're 100% right. So Lily, in your work and speaking with your clients and encouraging workplaces to make advancing equity, diversity, and inclusion a priority, not just a priority, but a meaningful and tangible priority, you've called out those who want to let it happen organically. In your opinion, when organizational leaders say that, what do they really mean and why doesn't it work?
Lily Zheng:
That's such a good question. When people say they want DE&I to happen organically, it means they don't want to take responsibility for it. That's it. Plain and simple.
Charlene Theodore:
Yeah.
Lily Zheng:
They're not seeing it as something that they need to do and they are hoping fingers crossed that if they simply twiddle their thumbs and look away, somehow they'll come back in a couple of weeks and the organization will suddenly be a magical place where people of color and women and minorities will be happy and fulfilled and they'll never have to think about these problems again. It's extremely wishful thinking and I'll be straight with you, it never happens. There is no organization where DE&I can quote "happen organically" without some intervention from the folks in positions of power. That's just not a possibility. That does not happen.
Lily Zheng:
And so when I hear people say that, what I hear is, "I'm scared. I don't know how to do this work effectively. I don't know what my role is. I'm scared that I'll mess it up. It's much better if I just take a back seat and let somebody else try to take care of this problem so I can come in and not mess things up." And it's a valid fear. I understand where leaders are coming from. I think, especially those that have been leading these fields for decades, they've gotten very, very comfortable at operating within a cisgender, heterosexual, non-disabled white man's world. And I'll be real, it takes a lot of skill to operate in that world, right? They clearly know what's up and they're still top dog. And this notion that we're going to be changing things and that we need a better world is deeply disrupting to that status quo.
Lily Zheng:
It's deeply threatening because suddenly they don't feel like experts anymore. Suddenly this world of diversity, equity, and inclusion where we're tossing in our own words like systemic racism, oppression, microaggressions, these are complete gibberish to these people that have been in positions of power and they're scared. They're terrified. And so saying that they want to let it happen organically is a way to very gently say, "I don't want to do anything about this. I don't want to have to give up my power. I'm just hoping that if we just wait and hold our breath, that this problem will go away."
Charlene Theodore:
I want to talk to you about a related topic because yes, you and I have both have conversations with people who say, if you put the right photos up on our sites, we sponsor our diversity partners and their galas and their association. Things like we'll be seen as a welcoming place to work and things will happen. I think the people that I speak to more are people who are trying and who recognize that it's complicated work and they are confused as to why their efforts are not producing results.
Charlene Theodore:
In that context, I want to give you a specific example that I noticed here and I certainly noticed South of the border in the legal profession and outside it. After the murder of George Floyd and whether it was Black Tuesday or leading up to it or after it, what we saw was a wave of statements, primarily on social media, from legal entities, corporations, firms, companies expressing some general solidarity, right? And there was commentary following that up from the media commenting which statements were successful and which statements were not successful, but there was also a backlash.
Charlene Theodore:
And I think it was a helpful backlash because what happened is in response to that, black people in all kinds of professions took to social media and said, "Hey, I read your statement and this is what it actually is. This is what their lived experience looks like for me as a black woman, me as a black man, me as a black LGBTQ person." And so I think there was an opportunity for a lot of learning from that kind of chain of events and that kind of open conversation. And the conclusion that I've come to and I've written about this before in response to what I saw happening was if you are going to be putting out a statement like that, and I can totally understand the need to respond and not stay quiet, I think what should frame your statement is after the solidarity statement, you should be in a position to before you put out a statement, ask yourself how.
Charlene Theodore:
So I stand in solidarity with the LGBTQ community. I stand in solidarity with African-Canadians, African-Americans. If you can't answer how, I think that should be the first part of reworking your statement. And I also don't think that there's anything wrong with saying we're working on it. We're trying to find a way there and we want to hear from you and listen and do better. I wonder what your thoughts are on that because I'm sure that you experienced it in California and throughout the States as well.
Lily Zheng:
Certainly. Yeah, I remember the time very clearly. I think in the States, DE&I professionals were talking nonstop about the waves of Black Lives Matter statements that corporations were putting out. And I think just to understand some context, we do have to go back to 2013 when Black Lives Matter first began as a widespread social movement in the US. It certainly started before that point, but 2013 was when it picked up steam for the first time. There was nothing in the corporate space. There was no statement. Very little was said, very little acknowledgement was had. It was mostly a social movement driven by activists and those who were working with activists and the black members of the community. Now, at that time, there was this perception among the business community that this issue was too fringe, too radical, too aggressive, and that they would be safe by not taking a stance.
Lily Zheng:
Now, come 2020 and the tables have turned, right? Things have shifted. I think most companies that I've talked to and I've worked with many clients that have more or less asked me if they should say Black Lives Matter or not. So I was privy to a very interesting set of conversations. Many clients said, "Is this the appropriate thing to do to be safe?" That was the framing that they used to make their decision. Is it safe to say Black Lives Matter? And that I think is something we should talk about. There was very little focus on is saying Black Lives Matter is strategic? Is it the right thing to do? Is it what our community members want? It was overwhelmingly, is this the response that is going to get us the least flack from the most number of people? It was a PR move. It was a PR move for most companies.
Lily Zheng:
And I'm not going to rip that. I think considering it as a PR move, it is true given our current landscape that people generally perceived companies that said Black Lives Matter very positively, but it also remains to be said that most companies that put out those statements were not ready to deal with the aftermath of them. And each statement was perceived by that company's employees and customer base as a promise. That's something that leaders didn't understand. Every statement was a promise. When you say Black Lives Matter, what you are essentially saying is we value black lives and we commit to making black lives matter in our work and in our workplace.
Lily Zheng:
And so, two or three weeks after those statements, when leaders didn't change their workplaces or didn't update their business practices or didn't make any more efforts to make their internal practices more inclusive, you saw an internal backlash.
Charlene Theodore:
Yeah, they didn't start the work.
Lily Zheng:
They didn't start the work because they didn't conceptualize that statement as galvanizing any work. They saw it just as a PR statement. And that's landed a lot of companies in trouble. We've seen a lot of black employees get really, and rightfully so, frustrated with their employees for releasing a flashy public statement, maybe making a donation of a couple tens of thousands of dollars, and then back to business as usual. And those same people have said, "Look, working in this company is not great." If you look at the performance, if you look at the lived experiences of black employees, black lives don't matter in this company. And so how dare you say that on social media while having this reality inside and those are the same employees that'll take to social media and go like, "Hey, this employer is a hypocrite. They say these things, but they don't actually care about these things."
Lily Zheng:
And that backlash, that's the backlash that I'm more interested in. That's driven a new wave of accountability for these companies that have finally, finally, finally gotten the memo and said, "Oh, when we say Black Lives Matter, that means we need to do more than just a statement or a donation. That means we need to do work." And I saw and many of my colleagues saw the demand for DE&I services spike about a month after Black Lives Matter statements were made when they finally realized that they had work to do and they were playing catch up.
Charlene Theodore:
Yeah, and I think that's why it was unfortunate in many ways, because I think the positioning could have been more reflective of the reality of what we were dealing with in the moment. But at the end of the day, as you said, it turned into a teachable moment kind of by force.
Lily Zheng:
It did come out of hostile.
Charlene Theodore:
Yup.
Lily Zheng:
And that's something that I need to stress. Every single time companies learn about DE&I through these big teachable moments, it comes at the cost of trust. And that's not something that's easily earned back. When you lose the trust of your employees, especially your black and brown employees, your woman employees, your queer and trans employees, that's not a currency that you can get back easily. And so I will tell leaders that these are learning moments, but they don't have the liberty to just take as many learning moments as they want. Every learning moment makes it more and more difficult to do this work effectively going forward.
Lily Zheng:
And I've already talked to my fair share of leaders who said, "We realized this too late. Like now our black employees don't actually want to work with us because this was the straw that broke the camel's back and now we're in trouble because we want to get better, but we failed so many times that our employees don't even believe that we can be better. And now we're getting bogged down in this long effort to win over their trust, to prove that we can actually do it, but we've messed up so many times in the last 10 years that this is really uphill now. I wish we understood this sooner." That's something that I'm hearing from a lot of people.
Charlene Theodore:
I can understand that perspective. From the actual leaders and people in ownership, they may see this as a starting point.
Lily Zheng:
Right.
Charlene Theodore:
And again, based on that lived experience of being a person of color.
Lily Zheng:
This isn't the starting point for any person of color.
Charlene Theodore:
Not at all.
Lily Zheng:
Right. This is our entire lives. Yeah.
Charlene Theodore:
Exactly. Not at all. Not at all. I could get into conversations about how profoundly sad it is that some of the changes that are being made some bigger than others, that it took getting to this point to make them... I'd love to know, are there any other examples, Lily, that you've seen of what I'd like to say best intentions when it comes to EDI that missed the mark when it comes to specifically implementation or that follow-through?
Lily Zheng:
Okay. Well, we could spend the entire rest of this podcast [crosstalk 00:24:58] examples-
Charlene Theodore:
Let's do it.
Lily Zheng:
Because that's my entire career cleaning up after well-intentioned people's messes. Where do I start? So one-off, unconscious bias trainings. That's the favorite example for people to pick on, mainly because the research shows that above all, they just don't work. So again, well-meaning people will say, "When you think about DE&I, what do you do?" Unconscious bias training. So they'll bring in some professional to do a one hour training, 60 minutes, have people take the implicit association test, say some profound statements.
Lily Zheng:
We are all biased. We need to become unbiased. If we can work on our bias, we can end racism or some silly thing like that. And then give people some exercises like reflect on your own biases and think about ways in which you've been biased, but then try to not be biased and then end the workshop like that. It doesn't work. It's a waste of time, it's a waste of money, and more importantly, it gives participants the false sense that they've done something important when in fact they've done nothing. So I don't like unconscious bias trainings. I think they're bad and highly, highly do not recommend them. There are many better things you can implement. But they do tend to be the very first choice that most leaders within companies tend to seek out.
Charlene Theodore:
I'm really, really wanting to know your thoughts about that specifically. So I want to clarify for our listeners, when you say the studies show that unconscious bias training does not work, is it that they do not work? They just wholesale or not effective, or is it the fact that people are using them as their only tool in the toolbox? They don't follow that unconscious bias training with other training and reading and learning and implementing their EDI goals into their strategic plans and keeping their eye on the ball and unconscious bias training is one small part of a broader sustained plan to shift workplace culture. So is it that they just don't work in any context or is the reason that they're not working is because it's all the people are doing?
Lily Zheng:
I will take the strong stance that they just don't work.
Charlene Theodore:
Okay.
Lily Zheng:
And I'd say this, if you dig deep into the research, what the research shows is that people's biases, people's unconscious biases, the unconscious ideas that they hold about different social groups, are not linked to behavior. And so, first of all, most unconscious bias trainings fail to meaningfully change people's unconscious biases. So let's say you have strong biases against, I don't know, black Americans. You go into an unconscious bias training. They tell you that you have strong biases against black Americans. You leave the training. Are you any different? In most trainings, no.
Lily Zheng:
Now, if you do an unconscious bias training extremely well, some trainings are able to change your unconscious biases. Research shows that even in those cases, your behavior does not change. So if you've been behaving in a discriminatory manner before the training, the best training in the world can change your biases, but you won't actually change your behavior.
Lily Zheng:
And so the overall impact of the training, both on your personal biases and on your behavior is zero. There is very little impact of these trainings on the outcomes that we're trying to create. And I think that's something that we need to square away with because as practitioners, we should always be centered on the outcome. We should always be centered on the impact. The goal of any work we do is to create people that act more inclusively and workplaces that act more inclusively. If we find trainings that fail to deliver on that promise, then we can't keep doing them.
Lily Zheng:
Now, the example you gave of is the training just not being utilized effectively within a larger goal and a larger set of strategies? Honestly, if you followed every single thing that you named just now like an effective strategy, effective goals, you can cut out the unconscious bias training-
Charlene Theodore:
I get you.
Lily Zheng:
And it's going to be really damn effective, right? That's the thing. You named a whole host of effective strategies, right? You named a whole host of effective interventions that the research actually supports, which include management training, DE&I strategy, that's top-down, but also customized for each individual business unit, managers understanding how that strategy applies to their day-to-day workday so that they can help their employees understand how to operationalize that strategy. All of these things work one-off unconscious bias training and no iteration is shown to work effectively. In fact, in some cases, and this is depressing, it actually makes things worse. It actually activates biases and makes people more biased after the training. And so given that we have 50 tools that we know works and this one tool that we know doesn't, I'm not here to try to find some way to finagle unconscious bias training into a broader strategy. There are just better tools.
Charlene Theodore:
I'm going to say, I'm trying to choose my words carefully. And the reason why I'm trying to choose my words carefully is because I'm also keenly aware that many of the people that do this work in terms of trying to facilitate cultural change in workplaces with an equity lens are people of color and people that come from the communities most effective. And so there is an industry of people of color that provide this training.
Lily Zheng:
I'm aware. I was part of the industry.
Charlene Theodore:
Yeah, yeah. And I think my views on unconscious bias training mirror yours, which is why in the second example I related, I think, more of the advice that I give that tend to work in terms of incorporating to this in your strategic plan, having it interspersed throughout the management level, having accountability, measurable goals. What would you say to the people of color out there that are getting tons of requests for work and are relying on unconscious bias training because that's what people are asking for and they're out there just trying to do their best and trying to affect some change? What would you tell them in terms of that's what they're looking for to have their practice be even more effective and impactful?
Lily Zheng:
Okay, so this is a tough question to answer. I think I will tell people I have strong feelings about this. Your work needs to be effective. No matter what you do, your work needs to be effective. And so if you can show that your unconscious bias training actually makes an impact, and I don't mean people like it. That doesn't count as an impact. I mean, actually creates an impact. You need to do some sort of measurement, some form of metrics. If you can show that it's doing something positive, keep doing it. Make some money to support yourself, right? If you cannot show that the work you're doing is genuinely changing things, you are an entertainer and not a practitioner.
Charlene Theodore:
Okay.
Lily Zheng:
That's it. I will draw the line there. And every community needs entertainers. They are important, right? Artists are great. We always need people to go up in front of an audience and tell a story that will make people cry. That is always important. We also have a desperate need for practitioners that do good work that creates an impact.
Charlene Theodore:
Yeah. And I think that as demand for this type of work is increasing, more and more people are getting into the field.
Lily Zheng:
I faced the exact same thing. Demand for unconscious bias training is through the roof.
Charlene Theodore:
The roof.
Lily Zheng:
And that is because prospective clients don't know anything else. They know nothing else in this space. I see my job as a practitioner as someone that helps solve my clients' problems. And guess what? Unconscious bias training doesn't actually solve their problems. And so if I'm a good practitioner, I will say, "Guess what? I don't know, Sharon, it sounds to me like you're dealing with a really toxic company culture and with some genuine problems of misogyny coming from the very top. I think your leader specifically could use some coaching and reflection on their own leadership style. I think your entire company could use some recalibration of its culture. Let me refer you to one firm I know that's really good at full service front to end helping company culture. Let me refer you to one coach that I know that's really good for working with white male leaders. Let me refer you to another DE&I firm that I know was really good at empowering middle managers to support leaders. Let me fix your problem."
Charlene Theodore:
Yeah.
Lily Zheng:
And I would not be a good practitioner if I try to sell my services as the solution to their problem if I knew that that would not work.
Charlene Theodore:
What I'm hearing and what I agree with is that in the same way that we're at a time where everybody is re-examining those traditional structures and the way that they work, as EDI practitioners, coaches, consultants, guides, we can also take that time to re-examine our practices specifically with respect to the issue of unconscious bias training and all of our practices to see how effective they are. And I think that we are all driven by the motivation to make an impact. And I think if you start there, read the studies on unconscious bias training and really think about how one-off training sessions in general-
Lily Zheng:
They don't work.
Charlene Theodore:
How very ineffective they are, you can constantly work to improve your practice to really make a difference. So thank you for indulging me in that long sidewinding path on that conversation, but it's an issue that's important to me. It's sometimes hard to talk about the fact that you have to balance some of that lived experience that you're getting from your EDI practitioner with the fact that there are very strategic ways. It's not an art, it's a science. There are very strategic ways to do this work.
Lily Zheng:
It is a science.
Charlene Theodore:
Right?
Lily Zheng:
Right.
Charlene Theodore:
The lived experience is critical in many ways, but lived experience alone will not get you the results that you need.
Lily Zheng:
Right. And not to rip lived experience. I think there are definitely people who go into this field with nothing but their own story, and I think those people play a very vital niche.
Charlene Theodore:
Of course, it's a tool.
Lily Zheng:
They are the people that storytell. These are the people that engage. These are the people that build buy-in. These are not practitioners, right? And so something that I ask everyone to consider is what role do you feel in the DE&I space? Are you a strategist? Are you an entertainer or a practitioner? Are you someone that brings leaders along in their journey? Are you someone that plays with the data? Are you someone that tells compelling stories and builds buy-in? We need all of these people, but not everyone can fill every role.
Lily Zheng:
And so when you have clients that are asking for specific things, you need to ask yourself, one, is the client asking for the right thing? The answer is almost always no. And then am I the right person to provide the right thing for the client? And again, the answer is usually no, because clients don't know what they want. And as practitioners, we have a broader understanding. We have a bird's eye view. We are in a prime position to show clients what they actually need and frankly, to give business to each other. The bigger we build a network of other professionals and other practitioners, the better we can solve our client's problems.
Lily Zheng:
I spoke to a practitioner the other day who said, "Oh, no, I don't like referring because these are my competition." And it was so silly because I'm just like, "Look, I guarantee that whatever it is you're doing, nobody else does exactly the way you do. If you see them as competition, you're probably just insecure about what you're doing." Because if you actually understand this space, everyone is so different. Everyone has a different approach.
Charlene Theodore:
Exactly.
Lily Zheng:
Everyone has a different methodology. I have never once thought of my colleagues as competition because I've never once thought of them as doing what I do, right? And that's something more practitioners need to think about.
Charlene Theodore:
I'm really glad you mentioned storytelling. I encounter that a lot and an over-reliance on storytelling as a tool. And I would love your thoughts on this. What I try and explain is there seems to be an instinctive, almost knee-jerk reaction when I'm talking about strategic topics for people to say, "Well, tell us your story. How bad was it when you were..."
Lily Zheng:
[inaudible 00:37:28].
Charlene Theodore:
I know. I know.
Lily Zheng:
Yeah.
Charlene Theodore:
Tell us about what it was like for you to article what it was like as a black woman. Tell us about some of the horrible experiences. And I can tell from the reaction to the question, you know it's a topic we can talk about for another hour in terms of what that does to relive those experiences, whether you're having interaction with your junior lawyers or with me being asked to do this every single time I have a speaking engagement.
Charlene Theodore:
So what I've shifted to is to try and explain to people that, especially in law. So let's say we're talking about the criminal justice sector. In telling those stories, what we're trying to evoke, as you said, is the storytellers are very powerful and it's there to evoke sentiment and sentimentality. And that is a really, really effective tool if you know when and how to use it and who to draw it from.
Charlene Theodore:
But we're talking about lawyers, right? And depending on what power you have as a lawyer or what power you have in the criminal justice administration system, the challenges when it comes to anti-black racism and how you interact with people that you have power over are rarely framed in a sentimental way. There's usually no violins playing when you're up against the decision, whether it's to assign someone bail or incarcerate someone, or whether it's who you're choosing to hire, right? Based on a resume or CV.
Charlene Theodore:
And we're not saying take sentimentality out of it, but what I usually say is, "Look, me telling these stories over and over again will accomplish probably one thing. You'll probably be nicer to me." But I'm sitting here as a very senior lawyer in a position of power. It doesn't help the people from my community that can't find a job, have a "difficult" to pronounce last name. So they can't get their foot in the door or maybe licensed in another country. And so I prefer to get down to the business of saying, "These are the strategies. These are the steps that you should do. This is how you make this more effective." I'd love to hear if that's something that you encounter-
Lily Zheng:
That is absolutely my own experience.
Charlene Theodore:
And how you push back or how you shift people's mindset on that topic.
Lily Zheng:
Yes, yes. Thank you so much for asking that. That's absolutely my own experience. I am a queer trans Chinese American non-binary firm. I have so many stories. And also I got my start in the DE&I field doing trans advocacy, transpacific teaching. And so people would always do the exact same thing. "Lily, Lily, tell me a story about transphobia." Like, "Tell me a story in which one of your colleagues misgendered you." And I'm like, "Yeah, okay, that's going to make you treat me better and that's going to make you say aw, but I'm not here to make you say aw. I'm here to make you get your shit together." And I'm not saying that you can't have empathy for me or trans people, but the goal of your learning should be to get better. And so I very, very strongly resonate with what you are and what you're talking about. I had to navigate the same challenge myself. Now, on the other hand, every person of color knows what it's like to code switch, right?
Charlene Theodore:
Yes.
Lily Zheng:
And when you are in certain environments, you need to know how to code switch back. Sometimes I am the person speaking to, let's say an employee resource group that's only the LGBTQ+ members of that company. So if I go in going like, "Yes, I'm the DE&I strategist. I'm high powered and I'm here to make things better." Right? People are going to be like, "Literally, what are you saying?"
Charlene Theodore:
We're going to shut down.
Lily Zheng:
I'm scared. So you need to know how to turn that off and be like, "Hey, I am, once again, a trans Chinese American non-binary fab and I'm here because I want to understand what things are like with you. I'm here to empathize with you. I'm here to share some stories together so we can figure out how to make things better." We also need to have those skills, but they need to be tactical.
Charlene Theodore:
So what I'm hearing is, and I'm so glad to hear it. I feel very validated in this moment, even though this is not about me. But what I'm hearing is a storytelling is a powerful tool and it's-
Lily Zheng:
Like all tools, use it appropriately.
Charlene Theodore:
Use it appropriately and it's only one tool. And I think for management and leadership, listen to your DE&I strategists to your speakers. If you're still at the stage where you're just having speakers and one-off training, don't worry. You'll get there. You'll get a little further.
Lily Zheng:
Maybe you bring in a strategist as a speaker if you want to push things a bit.
Charlene Theodore:
Yeah. Listen to them when they push back on resisting that storytelling because they do know best and they're trying to push you and your education. And when it comes to practitioners, again, know that you have the power to assert yourself and you don't always have to submit to that request to almost self-victimize in order to get that engagement. And you can push back. And again, know that it's one of many, many tools, and it's quite frankly, a tool you have to really be careful in how and when you use because it can undermine your work if it's not used effectively.
Charlene Theodore:
There are lots of leaders in law that are listening and a lot of them are listening because they'd like to make diversity that reflects to the clients and the public they serve our true reality in their workplace. Now, I know there's no one size fits all approach, but what considerations, what are some general considerations or components that we have to include in an effective plan? And I know I touched on it earlier. Give us a few things that are going to raise red flags if you're missing them.
Lily Zheng:
Sure, sure. So let me actually take the other approach and share the building blocks of an effective plan. I think every effective plan needs to take into account where you're starting from. And that means you can't just look into the future, you need to look into the past. What harm has been done? What are your current processes and systems that aren't working? What is the lived experience of people in your current workforce and your current customers, and where are things falling short?
Lily Zheng:
And identifying those deficits and rooms for improvement are really, really useful. Because what that does is you can say, "Look, we're trying to get better, but we know that we have specific problems within our sales unit, within our promotion process, within our hiring practices. These are some processes that we've identified are just not working." So let's not pretend like we're going to just try to do our best going forward, but specifically look into rectifying some of these past harms. I think that's absolutely essential. You need to do that needs assessment. You need to do a retroactive exploration into how your company has just not lived up in the past and take accountability for that. That is, I think, crucial to every strategy.
Lily Zheng:
Now going forward, I think some things you need to take into account are not only what is the strategy going to be, which I could spend an hour talking about, and I frequently spend more than an hour talking to clients about, but then how are we going to implement it effectively? Because it's one thing to have a strategy and it's another thing to actually achieve it. And what I always tell folks is you need to find some way to build broad buy-in across the organization. For the need of a strategy like this, you need to build some shared understanding that the status quo is not enough and it's not okay and it needs to change.
Lily Zheng:
And then you need to empower people with the tools to actually make that change. And what I mean by empower people is specifically empower your middle managers to figure out how to manage effectively to achieve that DE&I strategy. If your strategy doesn't involve middle managers, it's not going to work. Full stop. So just figure out a way to work with middle managers. They need to not just know how to apply it wholesale, but to adapt it to the reality of their working experience. Maybe a manager is working specifically in a context where they only talk to clients a lot and they work with people that directly work with clients. They're going to need to know how to embody the DE&I strategy in everything they say and do to clients. It's a very unique situation.
Lily Zheng:
Maybe you have an HR leader that manages four other managers that manages people. Well, they need to know how to train the trainers and they need to know how to apply DE&I strategy in a way that empowers other people to apply DE&I strategy. That's a very specific other situation. So this level of customization, I think requires a lot of training and a lot of learning on the part of middle managers that most companies neglect because they develop their strategy and then they cross their fingers and hope that just by writing the strategy on a document that it'll magically come to life. That's not the case, right? You have to essentially work very, very hard to keep an eye on your strategy and hold it's hand and make sure that it's getting applied and working effectively.
Charlene Theodore:
And that's really how you avoid what you've referred to as siloization.
Lily Zheng:
Yes.
Charlene Theodore:
That's kind of the cure to that.
Lily Zheng:
Yeah, that's a good point that you bring up. One of the challenges I think in the space is that if you make a strategy and just release it into the wild, what you'll get are some managers really, really digging the whole diversity thing and go like, "Yeah, I'm going to take this and run with it." And then they create this incredible program and they work really hard and then some manager's going, "Sure, whatever. It's another email in my inbox. Well, that's fine."
Lily Zheng:
And what you get is this intense siloization where some parts of the company or firm are going to really rapidly grow in terms of DE&I and some parts are going to completely stagnate. And then you end up with a very decentralized company with multiple lived experiences depending on the unit or the manager and actually makes things much harder in the longterm because everyone in sales is miserable, but everyone in product is having a great time, right? And then the people on sales are just like, "I hate this company. It's garbage." And the people on product are like, "What do you mean? Things are really good here." This is a recipe for trouble when you don't look closely at your DE&I strategy to implement it effectively. And jeez, like, that's one of like 50 examples of things to keep in mind when you implement DE&I strategy. But let me just leave it at that. With those things, we can start there.
Charlene Theodore:
So Lily, one of the reasons I'm really happy to be able to talk to you, especially at this time is because you just released a book that I think is amazing, The Ethical Sellout: Maintaining Your Integrity in the Age of Compromise. I'm wondering if you can tell us for those of us that haven't yet read the book, what is the messaging that we need to know now in this time? And why did you write the book?
Lily Zheng:
Yeah, so thank you for asking that. So The Ethical Sellout came out last year, 2019, the end of 2019, right before things set on fire. And we just could not have predicted 2020, right? Like nobody could have predicted 2020. So I think when we first wrote the book, it was because we had identified some challenges within communities of folks organizing for social justice. When this includes grassroots organizers, local community, advocates within corporations, we had identified that people were getting bogged down in this idea of personal purity. This idea that we need to be a certain way to do this work effectively. We need to speak a certain way. We need to act a certain way. We need to use certain terminology and language to be a good member of our community.
Lily Zheng:
And as a DE&I practitioner, this was very top of mind for me because as you know and as we've been talking about today, there's a lot of strategic necessity in the work that we do to change the way we speak and interact to be most effective. We just talked about that with the example of needing to code switch between talking to executives and talking to members of marginalized communities. But what we were seeing through the research was that most members of community feel very wary about how they engage because they're worried that they're not good enough. They're worried that they don't belong. They're worried that if they don't speak the right way or advocate in the right way, that they're somehow not good activists or they're not good advocates. Something that I've seen quite a bit in my own research.
Lily Zheng:
I remember last year, or maybe it was a couple of years ago at this point, going into a company and working with this group of employees that said, "Look, things are really bad in this company and we're going to unionize and we're going to set things on fire and we're going to get as many people fired as possible because we just hate it here and this is the nuclear option. We have no other choice." And I spoke to some other employees that said, "Yeah, I'm going to do all those things. Yep." And then I said, "You don't sound super convinced." And they're just like, "Yeah, well, that's really what our leader cares about. And I want to support them, but I don't want to say anything about it because I feel like she'll think less of me."
Lily Zheng:
And we ended up having a conversation at that point about effective tactics, about some of the options they had available, and the leader eventually said, "Oh, I realized that I didn't think about other options. Like we do have other things we could do before we go the nuclear route." And literally, the entire group breathed this huge sigh of relief and it came out that nobody actually wanted to do it.
Lily Zheng:
And this is not a unique sort of challenge, right? I think something that we face in our line of work is that, especially when we only center like let's say one identity, it's very easy to convince ourselves that there's only one right way to be a member of that community, or there's only one right way to be a good blank person, whatever that is, right? A good queer person, a good trans person, a good Asian person, a good black person. And that sort of thinking about personal purity really clashes against the sort of daily compromises we have to make as people that are trying to survive in this deeply oppressive world which we live in that often forces compromise.
Lily Zheng:
The subtitle of this book is Maintaining Integrity in the Age of Compromise, and that's just something that we saw over and over again. Everybody is forced to compromise all the time every day. So how is it that we can remain good members of our community given that surviving within an oppressive system forces compromise? That was the core driving question of the book.
Charlene Theodore:
It's a fascinating topic. It's something that we talk about within our own individual communities a lot and I think the black community, for example. For people that have had to walk the walk before younger, we're talking about laws, I'll say black lawyers are coming up, there's a certain way that they have had to adapt to be effective in just preserving their own careers and advancing change. Are there ways that you would recommend that they create space for new perspectives that I think are oftentimes coming from the younger community, younger lawyers coming up? Is there a way that they can say they may not speak the way you'd expect them to speak. You may not be used to hearing this message, but their opinions are valid. Are there ways that you can promote really some unity in terms of the different voices that are coming through?
Lily Zheng:
Okay. So just to clarify, are you asking for advice for these older lawyers?
Charlene Theodore:
Yeah.
Lily Zheng:
Okay.
Charlene Theodore:
Yeah.
Lily Zheng:
Yeah, so I think one thing that I would stress is most people that have had to make these compromises to survive don't think about them as compromises, especially if it's happening over the course of their entire life, because we don't like thinking about that, right? Like we get a lot of cognitive dissonance when we try to reconcile our own histories as, oh, I compromised my values to keep my career. That just feels bad to say out loud, right? But it is the truth. And so what I tend to start with is this idea that everybody is compromising something in order to survive. Even these young activists, these young lawyers that you think are just putting everything on the table, they're also probably compromising quite a few things. And that's the way that they've chosen to live their truth.
Lily Zheng:
The compromises that you have made are all valid and make sense, but they are all compromises. So saying things like, "I know that you have wanted to speak up at some point in your career and you chose not to because stability and your job and supporting your family was more important to you. I'm proud of you for taking the compromise that you needed to to live your values." And there's a new generation of lawyers that is making different decisions and taking different compromises different than the ones that you made. They might not compromise in the same way that you have, but you both care about the same thing, which is making things better for your community, making things better for each other. And so recognizing that everyone compromises but that we all compromise in different ways, how can you extend to them the same grace and understanding that you extended to yourself when you had to make these tough decisions?
Charlene Theodore:
Grace and understanding. Yeah, I think that's really, really not just profound advice, but really effective advice for what seems to be a bit of a generational divide within several communities about how we tackle what are very common problems, but sometimes we don't see the commonality in our issues.
Lily Zheng:
And I'd give the same advice to young lawyers, right? The folks who have come before you, it's very easy to say like, "Oh, you assimilated. You just gave up your radical edge to become part of the institution. Oh, I'm not like you at all." And what I would say to these people is they're more like you than you think. They did what they had to to survive, just like you are doing exactly what you have to do to survive. And it looks different because times were different. And the advice is the same. Extend to them the same grace and understanding as you would extend to each other.
Charlene Theodore:
100%. It goes both ways. So I'll preface this by saying there are so many differences, both from a cultural outlook, cultural perspective and worldview, and on just the laws that surround data collection between differences between Canada and the US, specifically data collection on matters as they relate to race. So I preface that because I really just would love to hear your take as someone who's doing this work globally but in the US on how important data and information gathering is to driving meaningful diversity in legal workplaces. I know that discovery, looking in corners and turning over every stone to discover what's really going on in your own workplaces is something that you help organizations with and it's one I think many struggle with. I'd be interested in finding out how you find out what's really going on in an organization and why, and what's that process there?
Lily Zheng:
That's such a fun question. Thank you for asking me about my craft. That's something that I always like talking about. So yes, the data question is really big. I'm not familiar with how Canada does it. In the US, can't do quotas, but you can certainly collect demographic information. You are allowed to collect this. Now, the challenges are that the majority of applicants of candidates of employees will simply not share this data with you because in the US there is virtually zero trust that companies will be good stewards of your data. And I wish I could say that people are being irrationally distrustful, but they're not. US companies are complete garbage at handling people's data. Facebook, really bad, Google, extremely bad. They'll sell your data for anything. And so people just don't trust these companies. Anything that you share will be used against you.
Lily Zheng:
And we see this from the plethora of resume studies that turn in the same resume but omit one form of information. And we see with every single study that the more data you give, the more discrimination you face, whether that's your race, your gender, your age, your education. Even if you went to a historically black college, instant discrimination. They'll assume that you're black and you will get hired at a much lower rate. The rates at which a black candidate or a candidate that is perceived as black gets hired is equal to the rates of a white candidate with the exact same qualifications who has a felony record. That's what the research shows.
Lily Zheng:
So knowing all that, people don't share data. People do not share their data. And this is a huge problem when you're trying to do discovery because you want to be able to say, "Look, the black employees within your workplace are having a tough time. The white employees are having a great time." And if employees are not sharing what race they are, then you can't make these assumptions at all. Now, the way you get around this, first of all is with the best companies, if you foster trust and people know what their data is being used for, they're more likely to share it with you. So if you say we're collecting this demographic data, it will only be used for surveys. No data is going to be connected back to you. All information is anonymized except for demographics. Sometimes that gets trust to be built enough for people to respond.
Lily Zheng:
Now, with some companies, this doesn't work because let's say there's only one black woman in the entire company then you get data about a black woman having a really bad time. Well, I know exactly who that is, right? It's not very anonymous, is it?
Charlene Theodore:
Yeah, of course.
Lily Zheng:
We see the same problem with like the LGBTQ+ women. They're usually very few of them. There's only one trans woman of color in the entire company and she's this. Well, I know exactly who that is, right? It's Lily. So that's another challenge. Now, how I get around this is I do my own surveying. What I do is I pitch to clients, especially clients that have relatively small teams where it's hard to keep the data confidential. I say, "I'm going to be the steward of all this data. Literally no one from your team can see it and you're just going to have to trust me on the basis of my reputation as a consultant doing this work that I will be a good steward of your data. And I'm only going to report back the findings in such a way that they will protect the people that submitted their data."
Lily Zheng:
And I actually find that it works really well. So if I see that there's only one trans woman of color that sends up something really negative, I will not share that back because that's not ethical, that's not safe. I will find a larger bucket to aggregate her results in, maybe the overall LGBTQ+ community. Usually the threshold, the minimum size, group size for admission is three. That's just the industry best practice. If there are three people in a group, you can safely report that group's findings without the findings being traced back to any particular person.
Charlene Theodore:
So the advice I've been giving is saying, look, one of the best ways that you can find out this information if you want to do any kind of data collection or survey, even on workplace culture, is to recognize that it shouldn't come from you. You should hire a third party to do that work. But what I like about what you just said is that-
Lily Zheng:
But that's a line. I'm the third party.
Charlene Theodore:
Oh, no. Yes, and you're the third party. But what I like... Where you went a little further is that you gave us some standards on how to assess that third party and how to make sure that they have your employee's best interest in mind and they know how to use that data to have it not just be effective for the management team, but for it to really be effective and safe for your employees. And I think that that's great.
Lily Zheng:
I want employees to put their trust in me, right? So I have to be a good steward of their data. That means it is my responsibility, and it's a big responsibility to ensure that no harm comes to them because of the data they send to me. And that's why I have standards, not just because it helps my clients do their jobs better because of course I care about my clients, but I am here because I care about community first and foremost, right? This is why I do my work. I could not live with myself if community suffered because of something that I did. And that's a burden that I'm taking on, but I think it's good that I'm taking on this burden because a manager certainly couldn't do this. People are able to put their trust in me in a way that they can't put in their own managers, and that's sacred. That's an enormous responsibility for me and it's an honor.
Charlene Theodore:
I was just going to say that's profound advice and I appreciate it and thank you. Rapid fire questions. First thing that comes to mind, what is the one fundamental change that you expect to see in workplaces 10 years from now?
Lily Zheng:
I want it to be a norm for CEOs to say black lives matter within a company and for their employees to speak up and say, "Damn right, they do." I want to see that.
Charlene Theodore:
I want that too. Thank you so much, Lily, for taking the time to talk with me today. It's really been an honor and a pleasure to chat with you and to learn from you. And I know our listeners are going to appreciate it as well.
Lily Zheng:
Likewise. Thank you so much for having me. This has been a really fun conversation.
Charlene Theodore:
My discussion with Lily unleashed so many stop you in your tracks kind of insights. I really am not sure where to even begin in distilling the key takeaways. But I think for those of us already engaged in the work of creating more inclusive workplaces, we've gained from this episode with Lily some valuable advice on how to refocus our perspective and reframe our approach to create and implement strategies that are much more apt to have the impact that we all desire.
Charlene Theodore:
My first takeaway, we too often look to future benefits when mapping out an EDI strategy without really taking the time to consider past shortcomings to really find out where we're truly starting from. An honest assessment of what needs to be done has to include a retroactive look at where we've fallen short if we want to plot a productive path forward.
Charlene Theodore:
Secondly, shift your perspective. If you're only looking at "diversity hiring" through the lens of what's the return on my investment, just looking at the value those candidates bring, what you're doing is unfairly placing the burden on them. Those people that have been historically excluded from our profession. Shift your perspective to really look and quantify the loss that you incur by hiring people that all look the same. There are very real and measurable deficits in sticking with the status quo.
Charlene Theodore:
Next, know that the imperative for diverse workplaces is most deeply rooted in demographic change and a corresponding change in perspectives. Clients don't want to do business with entities that take an apolitical stance on societal issues. Employees don't want to devote their talents to toxic workplaces in service of the bottom line. You have to look at any changes you make through the lens of creating a healthy and vibrant workplace where people want to be. The sustainability of your organization depends on it.
Charlene Theodore:
We've got work to do. And as lawyers who have principles of justice, fairness, and equality at our core, we can and should take a leading role in making it happen. Just hoping that diversity will happen organically is wishful thinking, especially at this point. Statements of solidarity while important amount to nothing more than PR if they're not backed with action. If you don't walk the talk, you'll not only be subject to backlash, you'll lose the trust of your current and potential future employees. That trust, once it's lost is not easily won back.
Charlene Theodore:
My fifth takeaway is about storytelling. It can be an effective way to gain buy-in, but it is one tool of many that has to be used strategically and in concert with other tools to meet your desired outcome, a workplace and workers that act more inclusively. Keep in mind that requesting someone to share their lived experience is often used as a tactic to defang that person and take their advice less seriously.
Charlene Theodore:
Next, whatever EDI training you're adopting, you should be able to show through actual metrics, but it's doing something positive. Otherwise, it's not only ineffective, but it can be detrimental to your broader efforts because participants think they've achieved something, they really have it. Whether you're looking to internal leaders or external consultants to address your organizational issues, remember not everyone can fill every role. Take the time to get it right. Take the time to find the right person to do each part of the work. When creating your EDI plan, you have to consider not only what the strategy will be, but how to implement it effectively. In a top-down approach, pay particular attention to whether you're empowering and educating those at the middle management level to customize it appropriately for their department and the types of roles and functions under their leadership.
Charlene Theodore:
Next, keep a close eye on implementation to see the changes are executed evenly across departments. Operating in silos will result in a mishmash and variation of lived experiences in the workplace across departments that can so distress and disenchantment and make things harder in the long run.
Charlene Theodore:
And lastly, number 10, there are many good reasons why a firm might choose to employ an outside EDI consultant. One of which we talked about today is the sensitivity in data gathering that is key to the discovery process. Employees may be more candid and compliant in sharing their concerns and their experience if they can trust the information that they disclose will be stewarded responsibly and carefully. This is an assurance they're more apt to trust when made by a practitioner who adheres to high standards of professionalism and protecting people and their data. As Lily told us, stewarding that information is a sacred and enormous responsibility. If you're not prepared to take on that burden in-house, find a third-party that will.
Charlene Theodore:
Amongst all many other things, I think this conversation with Lily has revealed that sometimes an outside perspective is just what an organization needs to bring dimension and direction to its vision for a more vital and inclusive workplace. But let's never forget to keep looking inward as well. Can you honestly say you're satisfied with the progress you've made? Are you confident about the course you're pursuing? If not, now. Now is the time to reflect on what more you could be doing to drive diversity with all the resources at your disposal so that you can look back a year from now and be proud of the impact of your efforts.
Charlene Theodore:
We'd love to hear from you. Rate and review this episode on Apple Podcasts and follow the link in the episode description for additional resources.