Consumers are increasingly seeking out businesses that care – that are doing right by their people, their community, and their environment – when deciding where to spend their money. Joanne McPhail, a lawyer who helped Barriston Law become the first B-Corp-certified law firm in Ontario, explains how a commitment to caring about more than profit creates a workplace where lawyers and clients find exceptional value.
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Charlene Theodore:
Hello. And welcome to the Work That Works Podcast. I'm your host, Charlene Theodore. Before I begin, I want to acknowledge that I'm recording this episode from the Dish With One Spoon territory. I'm grateful to the original owners for taking care of this land and I recognize the treaties that govern it. Knowing that our listeners span the country and are tuning in from other areas with their own treaties and unceded territories, I encourage you to continue learning more about the indigenous history in your community. It is important history and a story that continues.
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Charlene Theodore:
I'm OBA president, Charlene Theodore, and this is the Work That Works Podcast. I'm joined by Joanne McPhail, who as a partner at Barriston Law and head of their business group was instrumental in her firm becoming the very first law firm in Ontario and only the third in Canada to become a certified B Corporation or B Corp. In doing so, Joanne has helped Barriston Law formalize and hold itself accountable to an abiding commitment, to be a force of good in the world, to operate in a way that prioritizes people and place just as highly as profit. I think as lawyers, this is a name we all aspire to, but it's a tricky one to achieve.
Charlene Theodore:
So I'm curious to find out how they affect this balance at Barriston and what benefits it has brought to their practice culture, the work they perform and the client satisfaction they generate. Welcome Joanne. Thanks for joining us.
Joanne McPhail:
Thank you.
Charlene Theodore:
Ever since I found out about the business concepts and the business models that we call social enterprises or B Corporations, I have just been obsessed with them. I find them just fascinating. I'd love for you to explain to our listeners a little bit about what a B Corporation is and what inspired you to pursue the B Corp certification at your firm?
Joanne McPhail:
Sure. So a B Corporation is really all about balancing purpose with profit. So back in the 70s, there was this real growth of the idea of maximizing shareholder value above all else. And it, I believe, turned things upside down in terms of how our communities were operating and our environment was treated because it was always about shareholder value first and foremost. This new concept is really about being able to be profitable while still looking after your people and your clients or customers and your environment and your communities and balancing all of those interests in a way that is good for everyone, as opposed to just driving shareholder value exclusively.
Joanne McPhail:
So the concept arose probably about 15 years ago or so. I got introduced to it a couple of years ago by attending a documentary film called The Social Shift. Which was a film about a couple of young female twins from the east coast of Canada, hopping in a van and driving across the country, interviewing various social enterprises and talking about this different way of thinking about business and the importance of business in driving positive outcomes in communities and in the environment and what a big role we as business people can play in that, it's not just a government problem.
Joanne McPhail:
And at the end of that documentary presentation, they talked a little bit about the B Corp certification process. So I got intrigued like you did, I was quite enthralled with it, went and did some reading and then we decided to take five weeks and my CFO and my COO and I sat basically one week, we would do one segment of the assessment, which is an online free assessment, anyone can do it, if you're just curious you can actually go on and pretend you're a business and do it, but it's quite involved and it takes some time and commitment. And we just started to walk through that assessment process over those five weeks to see how we would do and whether we would be anywhere near being able to certify. And so that was the beginning of the process at Barriston.
Charlene Theodore:
My sense is that Barriston and you yourself as a business owner had these guiding principles that were reflected in the B Corporation certification already running throughout your business and that's what attracted to it. But I wonder what kind of changes or evolution of processes did you see in your workplace as you started to maybe go through the certification process or after you became a certified B Corporation?
Joanne McPhail:
It's actually one of the highest values, I think, of the whole movement is going through the process. If you're about learning and continuing to grow, yes, a lot of what the B Corp movement was all about really resonated with me because I felt it would resonate with Barriston and what we were already about. So, for instance, we were already very strong in the community. We had huge community commitments, a lot of law firms do. I mean, we've been traditionally leaders in that space really. And so that piece of it, for sure, resonated with hey, we're already doing this, but when you go on the assessment, there's all sorts of interesting questions that get asked that make you dig deeper into okay, we're going out in the community, we're doing these things, but is there a strategy to that? What's the impact that we're having?
Joanne McPhail:
Are we measuring that impact? So there's an improvement process that goes along with just participating, whether or not you actually certify in the end and what I think the area we grew the most in was environmental. We really, to be very honest and transparent, didn't do a lot of thinking about our environmental footprint. We're an office so it's not a natural thing maybe for us to have thought about versus someone that's producing something or potentially having a more direct impact on the environment. But we still started to try to be paperless, for instance, but we weren't looking at the amount of garbage that we were putting out in a day through our... We have a Barriston B store, a cafeteria, and just packaging and where we were ordering from and how far it was taking to transport our supplies to us, all of those things that when it's brought to your attention and you do some thinking about it, you can make improvements and make a difference.
Charlene Theodore:
Yeah, I think it's great that the actual certification process, it's not just a checklist, it provides opportunity for self-reflection and real wholesale systems improvements.
Joanne McPhail:
In my mind, it's one of its greatest gifts is that it is a checklist but there's a lot of minutiae involved. There's 200 points you can score overall if you ever had a perfect score, no one does, within that. There's hundreds and hundreds of subsets of questions and tools that they offer you to help get better and create policies that are more in line with B Corp thinking.
Charlene Theodore:
Now that you've done the certification, you are a certified B Corporation, one of the only in the legal space, from your perspective as having been operating your business in this way, what do you think is not working in today's legal workplaces? Where's our blind spot?
Joanne McPhail:
Well, I would have said technology before COVID, because we were so slow to adapt. It's a bit of a joke in the industry, I think, the lawyers, it's been remarkable, how we've all upped our game.
Charlene Theodore:
Hey, it's funny when you get forced to do something how quick we can adapt and do it, right?
Joanne McPhail:
It is. Yes. And so I've been really impressed by how much we've taken that up. And the legislative changes that have occurred that have helped us to practice remotely. When this first started you couldn't swear an affidavit remotely, and then they changed the laws. The changes that are happening in the courtrooms. And I spoke with a litigation lawyer the other day and just in terms of access to justice, which I am not a specialist in at all, but it occurred to me when I asked her, "How long are you waiting to sit to get seen in court?" And she said, "Well, it's a lot better now actually, because you sign up for a time remotely." And I thought geez so you're not sitting all day, potentially, waiting to be heard and you're not driving to and from, it could be, depending where you're going, a far distance and just how that might translate into the costs of litigation for clients. So you asked me what we're not doing well though.
Charlene Theodore:
I wonder if it's the environmental piece or were there any other pieces that struck you?
Joanne McPhail:
Yeah, for sure. With respect to B Corp, I would say we're probably not giving that a lot of thought. I mean, I'm making some assumptions there, but if it's anything like our firm was then for sure that's definitely an area of improvement and in terms of clients as stakeholders, I think law firms could think more about that. I think all law firms would say their clients are important. And I think all law firms care about client service. But I think if you start to think of your people and your client's stakeholders, that translation, it really does impact the culture of your firm and the treatment of your clients and your people.
Charlene Theodore:
So let's flesh that out a little bit. What does it mean under the B Corp model to have a client as a stakeholder?
Joanne McPhail:
Well, it might mean, and it's something we have not incorporated, but it's on my to-do list and advisory board, probably some larger law firms are doing this, but an advisory board of clients. I think sometimes we forget to ask our clients what they want. We determine on our own minds what we think clients want and provide it but I was on a seminar the other day with Seth Goden and he said, "People don't wake up with billable hour problems." And that really resonated with me. We haven't really addressed the big issue and that is the billable hour and how that translates when the client sees a bill or perceives a value. And I think from that stems a bunch of other problems just around lawyers feeling truly engaged. And I mean, I don't think lawyers went to law school to record billable hours either. They went to law school probably because they wanted to help people and make a difference.
Joanne McPhail:
And if we can get back to thinking about clients and what the problem is that we're solving and how we are solving it, and then translating that into a delivery model that is satisfactory to both the client and the lawyer, I think we could really change the day to day for law firms and really change people's and client's perceptions of the value that they get from their firms.
Charlene Theodore:
Like we mentioned up at the top, you are one of the only certified B Corporations in the legal space. And so what I'd like for you to do now is talk to the future leaders, the future legal leaders of tomorrow and give them some advice on, again, from that B Corporation framework on creating more inclusive or sustainable, or just socially or environmentally conscious workplaces, what's your advice to them? To the people who will one day have their own firms.
Joanne McPhail:
Yeah. It's actually funny because I'll try to think of some advice, but I honestly think that this next generation it's really like they're already thinking about this stuff and such interesting ways.
Charlene Theodore:
Yeah, that's a good point.
Joanne McPhail:
I feel like we're the ones learning, my generation and older, we're the ones that went oh gee, yes, we need to think about diversity and we have to think about getting all sorts of different perspectives, but millennials, I mean, I think they're the most culturally and racially diverse group. And they're going to make up something like 75%, I think I read, of the workforce in the next 10 to 15 years and they're more outspoken and they want everyone's voice heard. And when this idea of diversity, I think is the idea of just well of course we want diversity, how dumb would that be if we only had 60 year old white men telling us their opinions, right?
Charlene Theodore:
Yeah. It's no longer a debate for them.
Joanne McPhail:
Yeah. So in some ways I feel like they're going to do so much better than and I shouldn't probably be giving them because honestly I think they're just going to do terrific. And I think they already care so deeply about this stuff. And we've seen that just in terms of one of the benefits of being B Corp certified has been, we've been overwhelmed by the recruitment process and invariably people asking us about our B Corp certification and how easy it's been for us to recruit new talent as a result of it. Because I think that's the age group typically that we're recruiting and it really resonates with them. And they're very interested. They want to work someplace that talks about something other than the billable hour and that they're about something. They want a firm that stands for something, that has a culture of really caring and contributing.
Charlene Theodore:
I think that's an interesting point because I think that overall younger lawyers, the new generation of lawyers and even lawyers myself and my peers, we're looking for workplaces to do business differently. And we're recording this podcast is because not everybody has the answers, but the advantage of being a certified B Corporation is the framework and the stamp of workplace cultures and this is what we'll adhere to, it's in advance. This is what the expectations are. And these are the standards we're going to hold ourselves to. And you're also aligned with other companies who are not law firms that are well-renowned and people don't just stay loyal to them because their product is good, they stay loyal to them because they have a certain business model that incorporates their personal values and a certain ethical standard. So, you're lumped in with people like Ben & Jerry's and other really awesome B Corporations. I think that would have to be invaluable from a recruitment perspective.
Joanne McPhail:
Yes. Recruitment and also, I believe, down the road, maybe we're not seeing it quite so much yet, but as this movement grows and I do believe it will to grow, one of the slogans is vote with your dollars, the client or the consumer will be searching out businesses that care and are giving back and are doing the right things and are providing a living wage to their employees or whatever might be important to them. And B Corp is just an independent way to certify and avoid this idea of green washing where it actually says you're walking the walk. So, that's meaningful. It's just a way of assessing. There's lots of other ways of assessing as well. So I do think it's valuable both for recruitment and retention and also down the road I think it will have business like dollar and cent value as well. Again, we're a for-profit business, a law firm is there to make money. It's not like we're saying we're not trying to make a profit.
Charlene Theodore:
Yeah. That's really important to know because B Corporations are all for-profit entities.
Joanne McPhail:
That's correct. Yes. And it is important because it's just balancing that idea of profit. Everybody wants to make a living and make good money and be profitable but when we're making decisions, we're also looking to things like how does this impact our employees? How does this impact our communities? And in doing so, really, I feel like in the end, that is the best way to be profitable. So it's this circular argument, but in the end, if you're destroying your environment or you're not good to your employees, or you don't care about your clients, really in the end you won't be as successful of a business. So it really does make sense because I am an entrepreneur, so it really does make business sense too. And interestingly, I was just approached because there's a number of different organizations that provide assistance to businesses that are trying to be B Corp certified.
Joanne McPhail:
We were very lucky, we had, not only the CFO and COO that were really into it with me, but then when we decided to actually go for the certification and have to provide documentation, it's quite a lengthy process, we had three summer students working on it, our marketing coordinator, we had a bunch of people and we were able to devote those people and those resources to doing it. And not everyone has those resources. So there are a number of different ways of going about getting some help to do it, if a smaller law firm, for instance, was interested in getting B Corp certified.
Joanne McPhail:
And through that, I've met connections of other businesses who are going through the process, maybe not certified yet. And I'm getting requests for business. I just got one from Kingston and I'm in Barrie. So, because they were struck by the fact that we were a B Corp certified law firm. And nowadays it doesn't really matter. I mean, it's got to be within Ontario for our licensing, but other than that, there's not really any restrictions anymore in terms of who you can serve. So I thought that was interesting.
Charlene Theodore:
Another silver lining of COVID. And I love that it's, I guess, the gift that keeps on giving, because it helps your business, then you in turn can help other businesses. And also, again, all of this is an another income source for your practice. The way you describe it, I wonder, if at all, how being certified helps you from a management perspective, I'm getting the sense that it's almost like a management tool in terms of keeping you accountable in terms of what your business needs to do. It's clearly incorporated into your strategic goals. How does it help you and how does it help, I guess, your senior staff as management?
Joanne McPhail:
Guiding light for us. I felt like it helped cement our culture. I think we already had a great culture and a culture of giving back and a culture of caring about our people, but for whatever reason, it really helped cement it amongst all of our people and in particular, our management. And there's a lot of pride in the fact that we certified. We also instituted a B Corp committee, which continues to go through the assessment. The assessment changes.
Charlene Theodore:
Oh, really?
Joanne McPhail:
Yes. So every three years we have to recertify. So what you need to do is stay on top of it and make sure that you are continuing to improve. We scored an 83, you have to have a minimum of 80, but I'd love to have a score higher next time because we continue to work on it. So we have a B-Corp committee that's charged with that and reports back and investigates areas of improvement, and then sends things on to a green committee that we struck to deal with, in particular, the environment because we were weak on that. And we also have a health and wellness committee to address internal health and wellness issues as well. And they all stem from the B Corp and that guidance that's provided by B Corporation. So it's become quite an integral part of the management of our firm.
Charlene Theodore:
It's clear it's a lot of work to become certified. It's a lot of work to stay certified and you're going to have to recertify but what I'm hearing from you is that work is really serving your business, it's defining your operations and your overall strategic plan and business goals on a daily and annual basis, which I think is wonderful.
Joanne McPhail:
Yeah, it definitely is a mode by which we are kept accountable to what we said we wanted to do.
Charlene Theodore:
Accountability partners in whatever form they come are always great. We've talked a lot about the next generation of future leaders. We've also talked about the next generation of clients and what they're looking for, and what's going to really be the driver in terms of their choice between legal service providers. 10 years from now, I'm going to give you a magic wand just for this podcast, what changes would you like to see in the legal profession?
Joanne McPhail:
Well, I do think that we need to get really serious about flexibility in the workplace. If we are going to keep great talent, up and coming great talent, I think that is going to be priority. And so this whole development of technology through COVID has certainly shone a light on the ability to do that, which I think was maybe 50% of the process was just convincing, maybe, the people in power right now in law firms that it can be done. And now we see that it can be done. So I'd love to see flexibility in the workplace, but I also worry about culture and ensuring that you can maintain a sense of belonging because I think really first and foremost, people want that when they go to work every day, whether it's physically at work or at home. And so we're going to have to be really creative in terms of how we address that.
Joanne McPhail:
I would love to see us be with the times in terms of technology. Technology adaption being just a part of running a law firm and getting creative with our technology so that we are able, again, as I spoke of earlier, I think there's a little bit of a sense of exhaustion and time is a commodity issue that we have to sort out. And people have been talking about this for 30 years, how do we do away with the billable hour, flat fees? And how do we quote ahead with litigation matters? Because clients don't like it, but we haven't been able to figure out. And I hope in 10 years, we'll have figured out a different model, again, so that we can figure out how to take that commodity work away. I don't think lawyers want to do stuff that could be done more efficiently through technology.
Joanne McPhail:
Let's take that whole piece out of there and let them do the things they're good at and provide the expertise and the advice and the value add to clients that really that's why clients are going to see lawyers. I'm also really interested in this concept of the knowledge broker. And I keep meaning to take a weekend and immerse myself more in the idea of it but I don't see that as potentially a way to de-commoditize law that is repetitive or law that is simplistic and put it out there into the world in a way that is a low fee, easily accessible for all, but still make some money for the law firm, but keeps that off the desk of lawyers day-to-day having to deal with it. So I'm thinking about basic things like what was the example I thought of the other day, family law lawyers, every time they meet have an initial meeting with the client, they virtually explain how it works.
Joanne McPhail:
So, that's great. Client comes in and pays a fee for the initial consult. And I just think there's probably a way. Maybe I'm giving up a business idea here, but wouldn't there be a way to have a law firm put all this information online for a reasonable fee so that anyone could access it and understand it in a way that it can rely upon because you don't want to just Google something so that the law firm can make some money off of providing that expertise and advice in a general way and the clients have accessible information that they can then act on if they wish to take the next step. So I'd love to see that. And then it just comes that rudimentary stuff comes off the table of lawyers who would probably rather be doing something more interesting than giving the same spiel 57 times.
Charlene Theodore:
I mean, I love giving the same spiel 57 times. At 58, you lost me.
Joanne McPhail:
Yeah. That's what you draw the line.
Charlene Theodore:
I think that concept is so interesting. And so what you're talking about is maybe offloading some work, but not to another service provider. It still stays as lawyers work, but if there's a way that we could bundle it, deliver it virtually, have it accessible in a form where it's pre-packaged, that meeting, that introductory meeting, or the initial consult could be replaced with other work. I think it's a really interesting concept and I think it's also gets at the core of lawyers and quite frankly, their clients are trying to do. How do we become more efficient? How do we offload the routine and free ourselves up for the really creative complex stimulating work? I'm hoping you get that weekend to reflect on it soon.
Joanne McPhail:
I'll do my best.
Charlene Theodore:
Well, Joanne, I consider myself a workplace lawyer. I'm a champion of healthy workplaces and the ways that lawyers can use their skills to achieve those. And so it was such a pleasure talking to you today. Congratulations on really being a leader in this industry and being one of the first to bring the Canadian legal industry into the B Corp world. I certainly hope more firms follow suit. I hope you don't get inundated with calls. But at the same point, that's a good thing.
Joanne McPhail:
Yeah, it's a great thing. And I would welcome other law firms to go through this process, honestly. Wouldn't it be fantastic if our sector really made a big dent in the B Corp movement?
Charlene Theodore:
Well, I am looking forward to the day where we can have a B Corporation section at the OBA. We've got enough critical mass, so...
Joanne McPhail:
Love that. Wouldn't that be fantastic?
Charlene Theodore:
Hey, I'm speaking it into existence to it, Joanne.
Joanne McPhail:
Okay, that's awesome. Let's do it.
Charlene Theodore:
Was lovely [inaudible 00:25:54] with you. Thank you so much.
Joanne McPhail:
Thank you. Take care.
Charlene Theodore:
As Joanne pointed out, many firms and legal workplaces are already advancing the principles that B Corp certification demonstrates. A good workplace and one the clients will want to do business with is one that uses continuous improvement as one of their guiding principles. So what are the next steps and key considerations in systematizing and holding your organization accountable to those principles and standards of social responsibility. First step, a good starting point is reminding yourself that you can in fact be profitable while looking after your employees, your clients, your environment and community.
Charlene Theodore:
In fact, in addition to the proven benefits in recruitment and retention B Corp status offers, certification will almost certainly bring in new clients who want to do business with companies that care. Remember Joanne's example of thinking about the garbage you're creating with food packaging in your in-house cafeteria or the fuel used in transporting catering deliveries when you order from businesses far from your office, instead of choosing local. All law firms care about client service, but leadership often decides amongst themselves what clients actually need. Firms would benefit from thinking of clients as stakeholders, perhaps even creating an advisory board of clients that could become part of the process of enhancing service delivery.
Charlene Theodore:
Lastly, the certification process is the guiding light that the lawyers at Barriston Law are following, but there are other ways for you to ensure a workplace balance that brings benefit to everyone. Chart your own path and create accountability partners, commit to that vision of your ideal culture and foster a sense of belonging among your employees, expand your worldview, create organizational values that you can live by, be a mission driven workplace that centers around a common good. I believe private sector organizations can do and be all of these things. Ultimately, whether your organization decides to pursue B Corp certification or not, the assessment process is worth exploring. It provides a framework for self-reflection and wholesale system improvement in creating a workplace that works for all stakeholders while having a positive impact on the community. And as we've learned in our previous podcast conversations, this values driven approach is one that resonates especially strongly with the new wave of lawyers and clients.
Charlene Theodore:
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