John Brown and Bryn Gray, leaders in McCarthy’s EDI, mentorship, and pro-bono programs, including the recently launched Indigenous Human Rights Clinic, offer insight on how organizations can engage with Indigenous communities to build trust and awareness that will improve access to justice and inspire Indigenous youth to pursue a career a law. Gain practical advice on crafting an effective Reconciliation Plan, creating a welcoming workplace for diverse talent, and cultivating culturally sensitive and astute lawyers.
RESOURCES
Truth and Reconciliation Toolkit for Firms
Work that Works: Point Counterpoint Expert Exchange
In-house Departments and Law Firms Driving Diversity and Inclusion Together: More than Just Talk
Have feedback? Email us at pod@oba.org with your thoughts and comments.
Charlene Theodore:
As a preface to this episode, I would like to convey my profound, personal sense of sadness and national shame that I know so many of you share in the wake of the discovery of the remains of the child victims of Canada's residential school system. As of this recording, more than 1300 bodies have been unearthed in burial sites, near the sites of former Indian residential schools in British Columbia and Saskatchewan. The episode you're about to hear was recorded well before these disturbing discoveries were made, so there is no reference to them in our conversation. I believe however, that this reminder of the brutal ongoing systemic abuse inflicted on indigenous people in Canada makes the insights offered up in this discussion all the more important. And the accompanying calls for awareness, understanding, respect, acknowledgement, and ultimately action, all the more urgent. (silence)
Hello, and welcome to the Work that Works podcast. I'm your host, Charlene Theodore. Before I begin, I want to acknowledge that I'm recording this episode from the Dish With One Spoon Territory. I'm grateful to the original owners for taking care of this land, and I recognize the treaties that govern it. Knowing that our listeners span the country and are tuning in from other areas with their own treaties and unceded territories, I encourage you to continue learning more about the indigenous history in your community. It is important history and a story that continues.
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Charlene Theodore:
Pro bono in human rights work, mentorship and pipeline investment, are all critical to driving access to justice and diversity in law. How can organizations combine and channel these forces to better engage, better serve and ensure better representation of the indigenous population with cultural sensitivity and, and then commitment to inclusion? I'm OBA president Charlene Theodore, and this is the Work that Works podcast. We've spoken before on this podcast about how the increasingly values-driven cohort of up and coming lawyers has been a catalyst for change in our profession, carrying within them the promise of a more profound culture shift than the law has ever experienced. My guests today are encouraging and channeling the ambition and idealism of this next generation of lawyers into meaningful high impact work, serving underserved populations while creating a kind of welcoming workplace that embraces and ignites our diverse talents. John P. Brown is legal and strategic advisor, indigenous initiatives at McCarthy Tétrault and the chair of their reconciliation committee.
Charlene Theodore:
Bryn Gray is a partner at McCarthy Tétrault specializing in corporate commercial disputes in aboriginal law and is a member of their litigation and environmental regulatory and aboriginal law groups. Both are leaders in the firm's EDI mentorship and pro bono programs, including the recently launched indigenous human rights clinic that offers law students invaluable legal education and pro bono experience. I'm eager to speak with them both about the impact of the clinic on the students and the indigenous communities it serves and how it fits with the other initiatives the firm is leading to cultivate culturally sensitive and astute lawyers. Welcome John and Bryn.
John Brown:
Thank you for having us.
Bryn Gray:
Thank you.
Charlene Theodore:
So both of you are very active in diversity and inclusion initiatives within your firm. I'd like to start out by just asking each of you, why you've made advancing EDI in the profession, such a key component of your respective careers? Let's start with you, John.
John Brown:
Because we should do it. I mean, we have a very diverse world, diversity brings strength to any organization, particularly to a law firm. Our whole business is relationships. Relationships with all the people around us that includes everybody. And so if you aren't doing that, you're kind of like an ostrich with your head in the sand. You have to reach out and know who you're working with, know who you're creating relationships with and know how to do it well.
Charlene Theodore:
Absolutely, couldn't agree more. What about you Bryn? How does it balance or compliment your other career priorities?
Bryn Gray:
So diversity, I agree with everything that John has said. I think for me, when I think back about why I got involved in diversity and inclusion issues, it's really something that started as something that was really personally important to me as a law student. As a gay man, I know what it feels like not to belong or to be accepted. And it was critical for me to find a law firm where I would feel welcome, supported, and could advance and that they would support my career development. And it was also really important for me then, as it is now, that the legal profession as a whole was inclusive of members of the LGBTQ community. So as a law student, I got involved as a member of the Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity Committee of the OBA, and then got involved in diversity and inclusion issues at both of the firms that I've been at as well as other organizations, such as out on Bay. A key focus of my work in this space has been on LGBTQS plus inclusion, but I've also expanded into supporting other areas of our inclusion strategy, including on the indigenous inclusion front. And as John says, it's a key priority for us because we recognize that we need to build a truly inclusive workplace if we're going to attract and retain the best talent and create a culture at our firm that's needed to do so.
Charlene Theodore:
Absolutely. Now, we've spoken on this podcast before about not taking a one size fits all approach to creating more welcoming and empowering workplaces for racially, ethnically and other culturally diverse lawyers. We've also talked about the pitfalls of grouping black, indigenous and other people of color into a single community with respect to your approach to diversity at work. I wonder when it comes to both serving the indigenous population in Canada and attracting indigenous students to the legal profession, whether there are distinct considerations that workplace leaders should be crafting into their plans? So to break that down, John, perhaps you could speak to the distinct challenges and opportunities in building a pipeline to the profession for indigenous youth.
John Brown:
Sure. I think what's really important as a starting point for this discussion is being aware of the legacy of Canada's relationship with indigenous people. So it really feeds back to that and I don't think we have time to talk about all of that, but things like the Sixties Scoop, the residential school issues, the oppression which the government inflicted on the indigenous people for so many years. And what that created of course is a complete breakdown in the relationship between the indigenous people in Canada, and a whole level of mistrust. And because of that, there is a gap between the indigenous people and the non-indigenous people in Canada, which we are trying to bridge through reconciliation. That's the big picture. So when it comes to recruiting or bringing indigenous students into the legal profession, we face those obstacles, and of course the obvious obstacle that it was the law that was used and in many ways still is being used to oppress the indigenous people. And to convince them to join this profession, we have to address all of those issues, we have to demonstrate to the indigenous people that we are open and welcoming much the same way as Bryn was looking for someone and a firm that would be welcoming and open and supportive of him.
John Brown:
Indigenous people have this level of mistrust, understandably so, and what they perceive to be a true lack of respect, and those are difficult gaps to break through or to cover over. And so the distinct challenges are those trying to meet those challenges begins with some awareness of that legacy, because without an awareness of that legacy, you don't know what challenges you're addressing, right? But once you have that awareness and I'll talk about this a bit more, perhaps as we go on, once you have that awareness, it gives you a bit of understanding. So you know where the indigenous students are coming from, even understand what they're looking for in a firm in the legal profession that has not been kind to them for many, many decades.
Charlene Theodore:
Now, just to follow up on that, John, how do you as a firm... For looking in terms of inside the workplace at creating that welcoming space where all lawyers can thrive, let's turn to the other side of the coin and talk about what are the distinct challenges or the distinct opportunities in terms of providing meaningful legal services to the indigenous community.
John Brown:
That's a very different question. What I found in the recruiting process is sort of any firms that have a lot of indigenous clients, for example, and only a few firms that focus on recruiting and retaining indigenous lawyers. And so your question kind of combines the two, I'd rather focus on the latter question. What do we do to recruit and retain indigenous students to make them feel welcome? So for example, a couple of years ago, I instituted an indigenous open house. So I invited indigenous law students from across Canada in person before COVID, and since then virtually and if you can imagine this in a Bay Street law firm, in our law firm in Toronto, in the 53rd floor, we clear out all the tables, we clear everything out and we create a talking circle with chairs. And we invite them in, we have the medicine wheel, we have smudging, we use a talking stick, everybody introduces each other to each other, and we welcome them in that environment.
John Brown:
So right from the get-go we say, "We see you, we respect you. We want to make you feel welcome." And moving on from there, we have policies in place and procedures in place to continue to make them feel welcome and respected and let them know they can reach out to me or a number of other people at the firm just to discuss and deal with and address specific issues for them. And that process of continuing to make them feel welcome is probably the most important part. So I don't want to go into all the little things we do, but that's our mindset. We don't bring them in the door and say, "Okay, you're on your own." We welcome them in the door and we say, "We're with you every step of the way. And it may involve working with indigenous clients on indigenous issues. It may not, but you know what? We're going to train you to be the very best lawyer you can be."
Charlene Theodore:
And that's really the key. That's the foundational principle. I know that our listeners are lawyers and leaders in law firms that are committed to really moving the dial on EDI, but have tried various initiatives over the year to varying degrees of success. And I think that what we learned for the black population in Canada this summer is that EDI is not a one size fits all, racialized groups are not a monolith. And so an EDI strategy has to really be tailored to that group. And so when you talk about, it starts with education, which is incumbent upon all of us as layers to educate ourselves on indigenous laws and indigenous history in Canada, and then you flow from that into your onboarding initiatives through the lens of the lived experience of indigenous people in Canada and their relation to the law and legal institutions. And only through that is what I'm hearing you saying, can you actually have a successful program as opposed to a one size fits all general diversity program, which will leave you wondering, well, where are all the indigenous people? We didn't get indigenous applicants, or we didn't have people applying. Having that indigenous open house specific outreach along with education for the people that are doing the hiring is really what's key. So greatly admire the efforts.
John Brown:
Yeah. If I could follow up on that point, our inclusion in our program which is extensive, unique and groundbreaking and cutting edge. First, I've returned leads all through our law firms across Canada in the scope, the depth and the complexity of it, and to the points you just made, yes, you can't lump everyone in. That's where we have different groups. Each group has a separate person who is responsible for making sure it goes the right direction and meets the issues of the constituents that it represents, well, we use out for lack of a better term. And so, for example, in my case, at the beginning of 2020, I retired from my mitigation practice after about 40 years to take on the specific role of legal and strategic advisor, indigenous initiatives. So my entire focus at the firm is indigenous initiatives to help bridge the gap between indigenous students and non-indigenous people in Canada to help the firm become engaged in a sincere, genuine, and meaningful way with the indigenous community and to help the members of the firm.
John Brown:
You used the word learning, I prefer the word awareness. To gain the awareness they need to understand where the indigenous people have come from. Because if you don't understand, if you're not aware of those challenges that the indigenous people have faced over the years, you can't understand where they're coming from. You can't create a true relationship with them because those, awareness and understanding are first steps towards a meaningful relationship. My goal is to imbue that awareness and understanding throughout the firm, as if it's like getting up in the morning and saying, hello. Then the respect follows naturally from that, so we're quite granular in it. And that's why it's really important for law firms to understand to your point, you can't have one size fits all. You have to create the awareness and understanding from group to group.
Charlene Theodore:
And what I really love about these conversations is that McCarthy's is a firm of a certain size and a certain reputation, prestige, and what I like about these conversations is that people from firms of any size, when you actually break down the template and the tools of what you guys are doing, anyone can do it. I can say with some certainty that McCarthy's budget is different than the budgets of most other firms across the country, but having an indigenous open house, these are not initiatives that require a high spend. These are grassroots in some respect, common sense initiatives that require someone putting in the actual time and the effort to gain the awareness, as you say, about what the actual needs of the community of indigenous lawyers are, and actually caring enough about the workplace culture of the firm and having indigenous lawyers at the table, positioning them so they can be future leaders at the firm to actually put in the work.
John Brown:
I'd like to hire you because you've expressed so well exactly what the firm is trying to do here. That is the main reason why I moved my litigation practice to my current role, because I saw the firm's commitment to it, budget or no budget. The commitment is from the leadership down, and that's really important. And we hired Nikki Gershbain to run inclusion now, and it's that whole sense of those points that you've made that permeate what the firm is now, which really makes a difference. And it's difficult to do with a firm as big as we are, but the same process can work at a smaller firm just as effectively. But you have to have awareness, understanding and you have to have buy in from the top down. No question.
Charlene Theodore:
Absolutely. Bryn, I'd love to talk to you about the indigenous human rights clinic. How did McCarthy's become involved?
Bryn Gray:
Thanks. We became involved, I think back in 2018 and just to kind of provide a little bit of context, the indigenous human rights clinic was established by Pro Bono Students Canada. And it's a partnership between PBSC and the Ontario Federation of Indigenous Friendships Centres. And we got involved through PBSC, which we had a longstanding partnership with since 2004 as their national law firm partner. So back in about 2018, I was approached by the former executive director of PBSC Nikki Gershbain, who's now our chief inclusion officer. And she told me about the idea that she was thinking about of establishing this clinic, and that they were planning to apply for the Emil Gumpert Award through the American Trial Lawyers Association. And this award would provide $100,000 US in seed money to be able to establish this new program that would provide support for indigenous peoples with human rights complaints. Both kind of advising, providing summary advice and assisting with mediations and hearings before the provincial and federal human rights commissions.
Bryn Gray:
And the idea was to start it as a pilot program in Ontario and hopefully expand it nationally. So she asked us if we'd be interested in supporting the application, as well as having McCarthy's lawyers be involved in the program as lawyer supervisors and participating in the mediations and hearings. And so for me, when I heard this, it was a very quick yes and yes to Nikki on this because we just thought it was such a great and needed initiative. And so after that, we got involved and we supported the application to the American Trial Lawyers Association. We hosted the panel when they were up here for their investigations and interviews, and then following the receipt of the award, we continued to be involved in the development of the program in a couple of different ways. John has served on the advisory committee and I've been involved in organizing our involvement in the clinic, which is really building up a roster of lawyers that will supervise students and attend mediations and hearings once the clinic expands to that area.
Charlene Theodore:
That sounds like an amazing initiative. What's the response that you've had from those who've been involved or used the clinic services?
Bryn Gray:
So the response has been very positive to date. I will say it's been a kind of slower and more challenging start than we had initially anticipated long before we talked about this program because we had launched virtually. So the idea when the clinic was established was that we would be partnering with friendship centers so there would be an in-person presence in Ottawa and Toronto that would be able to get the word out to indigenous people, provide education, and provide a space for indigenous people to come in and meet lawyers and students to discuss human rights issues. That's obviously much more challenging in a virtual context, so it started out in late January and only with the Odawa Friendship Centre in partnership with the University of Ottawa. And so they've been doing virtual consults since end of January, and I think there's been growing interest over that time, but we haven't kind of ramped up fully because the Toronto center isn't yet open. And I think we're not going to be able to ramp up fully until we have kind of an in-person presence where we can really get the word out about the clinic and provide assistance to a much broader group of people.
Charlene Theodore:
I thank you for the transparency in that answer, because I think we learn as much from kind of providing the templates or the foundational principles behind some of these ideas that I consider groundbreaking, we learn as much from that as we learn from some of the challenges that we encounter in rolling them out. Some of the things that you see when it comes to EDI initiatives is that they start out with this great energy and great drive and ambition, and then when challenges inevitably come up, these things tend to fade out. So can you talk a little bit more about how you as a team kind of managed to pivot? I've attended at a CBA conference in the past one of John's solution circle discussions and was just really impressed by the physical dynamic and how it generated a different type of tone in conversation. Were the challenges that you faced in terms of rollout, just because of the pandemic and some of the logistic issues, or is there a deeper meaning in terms of the impact that this can have in actually meeting in person with indigenous communities in particular?
John Brown:
So I'll start with the last point you made. With indigenous people, relationships are everything. And so the sense you had from participating in the talking circle, or sometimes it's a healing circle, that's really important. The circle represents the quality of every person in the circle. The circle requires everyone to respect each other equally. You are facing each other in the circle, as opposed to sitting beside each other. You're looking at each other every time. We have a talking stick or an eagle feather we use within the circle, the person holding the talking stick, or the eagle feather is obligated to speak truthfully and from the heart. And he's entitled to be heard uninterrupted. Those not holding the talking stick or the eagle feather are obligated to be a witness to what is being said, and to listen with an open heart and with sincerity. And when you have that combination of factors in a circle, it creates a whole different atmosphere than a courtroom as you can well imagine.
John Brown:
It is collaborative, it is trying to reach consensus. It is respectful as opposed to confrontational, position taking, things like that. So yes, the fact that COVID intervened and made these interactions with indigenous people on video, there are practical, technical, logistical reasons why it's not as effective, no question about it. But we're quite confident that once we get through this COVID phase and people are prepared to, and can safely meet in person, that there'll be a real uptake in the process because relationships are hard to establish through an iPad, much easier to establish when you're face to face and you can feel the other person's presence and the tension or the joy or whatever it is that's being exuded when you're together. The process will work much better. And to your question about pivoting, as a member of the advisory council or committee, the indigenous human rights project, we really are quite grateful to the operational people who were able to pivot so effectively to create a virtual network, to at least get the projects started and underway, and to get all the training in of our lawyers and students with Bryn's help, great operations structure we have at McCarthy's to support this program as it ramps up. And so it's almost a blessing in some way that we've been able to have this time to get ready for what we hope will be the big push shortly.
Charlene Theodore:
Absolutely. Anything you want to add Bryn?
Bryn Gray:
I would echo what John has said. I mean, I think that obviously some of this has been just pandemic related, but there are certain unique aspects that have been more challenging because of the focus of the clinic. So if you think back about what was the purpose of establishing this clinic, it was a firm belief that indigenous people, number one, face significant discrimination in this country. But number two, are not bringing complaints for a variety of reasons, whether that's access to counsel, whether that's a lack of awareness of human rights laws and their rights, or whether that's just a general lack of trust in the system. And so virtual access provides access to counsel, but it doesn't address a lack of trust. It doesn't address a lack of awareness of rights. And there's obviously as well, just impediments generally of many indigenous people getting access to that virtual consult.
Bryn Gray:
It goes back to kind of what John was talking about really earlier in the interview about the importance of building relationships and building trust. And that's fundamental to getting indigenous people to be comfortable accessing this clinic number one, and two, sharing their stories with the lawyers and the students so that the lawyers and students can provide advice on what is the best avenue or what are their options to pursuing the issue the people raised. And so all of that I think is very challenging to do in a virtual context. The time has been helpful to work at some of the kinks, and I think PBSC has done a fantastic job in pivoting and doing the best that it can do in the circumstances to launch this clinic and provide access to people that can access it and using this time to build out learnings on how we can improve the clinic going forward and improve training and so forth for students and lawyers.
Charlene Theodore:
Both the LBA and CBA and myself personally have done a lot of public speaking advocacy on the importance of not just diversity, but specifically representation of the indigenous community at all levels of our judicial system, including, and some would say most importantly on the bench. I would love to know from either of you, if you have noticed either any of the programs that deal with addressing the lack of representation of indigenous lawyers, either in law or in leadership positions or on the bench, whether they're your own programs at McCarthy's or other programs from within the legal community. Are there any programs out there that you see kind of, you can draw maybe a somewhat straight line between the work that this program is doing and greater representation of indigenous lawyers on the bench?
John Brown:
That's a big question, particularly after we've indicated that the clinic only got up and running virtually in January, I'd love to say we've had this magic pill and all is well, but I can say this with some confidence. What we're hoping the clinic will do is one, make it more available to indigenous people, build the relationship up with the indigenous community so they will actually trust us enough and trust the program enough to come forward. In doing that, we'll be able to learn their stories and help them obviously, we'll be able to identify the systemic discrimination they face on a daily basis from being refused rental accommodation, to being followed when they wander through Walmart, for example, because they're indigenous and they think they're going to be shoplifting. Terrible things, it happens all the time. But we're hoping to gather enough data and statistics so we can use that going forward not only to make it known to the Canadian people generally this happens every, but also to create a database in statistics that can be used either informally or formally in court proceedings to demonstrate to the judiciary how real this problem is. And to use it before tribunals to demonstrate how real this problem is and in that way to help effect change.
Charlene Theodore:
Well, here's what I think. I think that the program that you described in terms of specifically tailoring your recruitment and onboarding process to indigenous students, programs like that and all the iterations I hope of similar programs that will come from that example, I do think that is step one to having greater representation of indigenous lawyers, either as law firm leaders, whether it's in private practice or in house and indigenous lawyers being appointed to the bench. Because every judge in this country had the same first step of start out with your first job, and hopefully you are able to work in an environment that is supportive and allows you to do your best work with as minimal barriers related to your indigenous identity, gender, or race as possible. So I think that's step one, and what I think I'm learning from you, John, not just in this conversation, but in the time that I've known about you and known about your work. Another step is the overall work in the community to repair the reconciliation work, repair that relationship of mistrust in our legal institutions specifically and beyond the indigenous community to have people actually recognize what reconciliation is, what led to the need for reconciliation and why it's so desperately needed. I'm wondering if you see a third step or another factor that needs to be done in the profession to kind of have the equal representation that we're all striving for?
John Brown:
Let me give you a small example, you talked about creating the relationship or establishing and maintain a respectful relationship with indigenous people basically. That's the root of all this, that's the foundational start or it's the first step. So one of the things that the firm has done is looked at that whole path, so to speak. So getting the firm engaged in the indigenous community is the first step in creating or trying to establish the relationship. You can't just say, "Here we are, this is what you need. Let us do it for you." That's what Canada has been doing with indigenous people and quite badly for decades. You become engaged in the indigenous community and you listen to them first, you find out what they need and you ask, how can we help? And you let them tell you. And that is in many ways, one of the root causes of this gap between the indigenous and non-indigenous people, we all think we know, the Canadian people or the Canadian government all believe they knew better, and they treated indigenous people as wards or as children or worse.
John Brown:
So having tried to describe the relationship, we go back now to try to improve the relationship in this one small example I'll give you. The firm is evolved in a number of programs. We started with the Martin Family Initiative program in which firm lawyers and staff mentor indigenous high school students throughout the school year. Right now, a little bit on hold because of COVID, and because the students are Zoomed out. But we've been doing this for many years, right across the country. And so we meet once a month with them, we have an educational component, then we have a fun component. And we get engaged in the indigenous community that way, and we get engaged with the youth from grades nine through 12, right through. The next kind of step in the program is we work with the law schools and the universities. We have programs with many of the law schools in terms of scholarships and programs we that sponsor, and they did just summer camp or program at Osgoode Hall Law School for example.
John Brown:
On the financial side, we're sponsoring with the group called Indspire, I-N-D-S-P-I-R-E Indspire awards. There are five awards of 10,000 each that McCarthy sponsors for the next five years so we can help the indigenous university students get into law school and pay for it, which is really important. In terms of the engagement in the community on the legal basis, we have the Pro Bono Students indigenous human rights clinic we've talked about, but the firm is also involved with a group called Aboriginal Legal Services and a particular part of it called the Giiwedin Anang Council, and that's the Anishinaabe name for the North Star Council. And that council is comprised of indigenous community members who helped mediate child custody, welfare, and access issues. The point of that is we do a using healing circles, talking circles, medicine, elders, traditional teachings.
John Brown:
And the focus is to ensure the children who are involved in that process, their rights and their interests are the focus of what we try to resolve and that their connection to their culture and language and community is maintained as much as it can be throughout the process. and afterwards. And the firm has supported this project, Giiwedin Anang Council financially. We use our facilities to help train other indigenous community members who want to become mediators, and we have a number of our lawyers, including myself, I've been involved in there for about seven years now, who are actual council members i.e. we help facilitate, we run the talking circles or the healing circles ourselves. So the firm is getting engaged in the indigenous community in this, I'll say small way in the big context of the world from high school, right through university, financially supportively through law school.
John Brown:
And when they get to the firm, we have things like the Martin Family Initiative, they can get involved in at the other end of the project, the Giiwedin Anang Council, they can help the community members to deal with the aftermath of the residential schools problem and the Sixties Scoops issues, it's a wonderful continuum. That's how you get engaged because you demonstrate long-term commitment to all aspects of that relationship. The last point I'll make is we have recently commenced class actions on behalf of all first nations and their members across Canada, two national class actions in which we're seeking to compel Canada, to do something really dramatic, which is provide clean water to all first nations across Canada. We're doing that on a contingency basis, and we're engaging with as a result, first nations right across Canada on those issues. And we have a wonderful team of lawyers, both indigenous and non-indigenous, but for the indigenous lawyers who have recently trained in the firm, it's a great way for them to give back to their community, to be involved in something pretty significant going forward.
Charlene Theodore:
You mentioned the word continuum, that's the word that was kind of coming to my mind when you were describing all of the initiatives and how there is a link, right? Between one and the other, and there's a link and then they kind of loop back into each other, which I think is a really profound and impactful thing, and also as a perfect segue to my next question. The OBA has really committed to advancing in our own space reconciliation efforts and doing what we can do as an organization for our membership and our executive board to undertake our duties in the calls to action. I remember you speaking at an OBA institute program two years ago about the steps that law firms should take to advance reconciliation efforts, and two, maybe going on three years on now, what's your sense of how the legal community or legal employers specifically aside from obviously your own firm, have done in incorporating the calls to actions in their operations and what more could they be doing-
John Brown:
Okay, where do I start?
Charlene Theodore:
I think this question is so important only because we are in the midst of a global pandemic. And I think it is fair to say that most legal employers have maybe taken their eye off the ball as far as that's concerned. Everybody is concerned with returning to work, what that's going to look like, bringing their people back in, but it is important I think for myself as OBA president and for legal leaders to remind the profession that the calls to action, in as much as they relate to our obligations as lawyers, are always top, front and center. With the myriad of crises that we're managing within the profession now, I think it's important to take an opportunity to remind people that this is our commitment. This is our obligation. So I asked the question to you in that spirit.
John Brown:
Well, I want to make it as simple as possible because for all the reasons you've talked about, there are so many other things the firms have to deal with, with the COVID. So let me just say this. We've talked about awareness and understanding, and I said that leads to respect and acknowledgement. And when you have those four ingredients, you can start to create a relationship with the indigenous people you need to, or we all should be striving to create. Awareness leads to understanding, leads to respect for where they come from and where they're going, and acknowledgement for the contributions they've made over the decades that have been hidden for so long. And that's a good basis for the relationship. How do you get there though? Simple way to create awareness within the firms, take the path, the CBA program. I can't emphasize that enough. One of the things our firm has done is we partnered with the CBA and we're making the path available to everyone in the firm, legal and non-legal, and we hope to have everyone take it.
John Brown:
And I'm in the process now, for example, the incoming summer students, they all have to take the path as part of their training. Senior leadership team are all taking the path because that's the commitment the firm has, and then we're going to move from the bottom up, and the top down and lateral hires will be taking the path because that's just a fundamental first step. That creates the awareness and a little bit of the understanding. To get more understanding the firms should try to create a reconciliation action plan. Whether you're small or big, you can create one. You asked me, what the law firms have done. If you Google the law firms across Canada, you might find one or two who have reconciliation action plan on their websites. Okay. That's not acceptable. We're in the process of creating our own, and one of the reasons we haven't put a plan out there yet is this.
John Brown:
The firm has also been working with the Canadian Bar Association on a website they're about to launch called the CBA Reconciliation Toolkit. And what we've done is we've interviewed and canvased law firms, small and large across Canada to find out what they're doing. And we've looked international a bit too to Australia and New Zealand who have these kinds of reconciliation action plans for longer than we have. And the CBA has put together this toolkit website, which should be launched within weeks, which has collected in it, probably virtually all the resources a law firm needs to figure out how to write and put together a reconciliation action plan. So take the path, go to the CBA reconciliation toolkit website when it's launched, and it will tell you everything you need to do to begin the process for a reconciliation action plan and in the process of creating that plan, each firm will come to realize what it needs to know and what it needs to do. And it has to decide then whether it really has the commitment, the courage to do it, and that process will work beautifully. So that's a simple answer.
Charlene Theodore:
There you go. I love it. I have the pleasure, listeners, of speaking with John and Bryn on a sunny late morning in May, so I am sure by the time you are listening to this, that CBA Reconciliation Toolkit will be live on the website. And like I said before, I know from my position within the bar association and from the discussions I've had on this podcast, what the dilemmas that legal employers are facing, the important meetings that they're having with their governance and firm management teams, and these decisions that we have to make about the future of work in our profession specifically are only going to get more complex. And there's going to be more and more competing interests that you have to deal with when you're mapping out your post COVID strategic plan. Make sure that your duty as a leader in the profession and as a lawyer to reconciliation in this country does not go off your agenda as we transition into really transforming the profession, when it comes to equality, diversity and inclusion,
John Brown:
Number one.
Charlene Theodore:
So to wrap up, I would love to know, we ask this question, not of all, but of most of our podcasts guests, so I'll start with you Bryn, what do you see as the most important thing that legal leaders can do today to ensure that they are attracting the talent that will make their organizations representative, productive and profitable well into the future?
Bryn Gray:
I think it's critical that legal leaders at firms make diversity and inclusion a true priority. And what I mean by that, if you talk to any firm, they will say diversity and inclusion is a priority. And every firm has been saying that for years, including McCarthy's, including the firm that I was at before. And I would say I've noticed a fundamental change at McCarthy's when the leadership of the firm made it a true priority and backed that up with resources, the chief inclusion officer with a team and making sure that diversity and inclusion was a key part of every discussion. Whether it's recruitment, mentoring, advancement, and ensuring key training and education. And so I think that is fundamental to moving the dial forward on these issues. We still have so, so much to do, we're just getting started. But I think that is fundamental to making sure that there is concrete progress and accountability to ensure that progress and monitoring and performance metrics and things like that. I think that's really the only way we're going to really move things forward, we can't just keep saying it's a priority, we need to actually make it a priority.
Charlene Theodore:
Live the priority. I agree. John, what are your thoughts?
John Brown:
Same as Bryn's. Fundamental shift in the firm's approach to diversity because of Nikki and the senior leadership team being fully committed to this not being a priority, but the firm as you put it lives this priority. It permeates everything we do now. It's part of the fabric of who we are, and as Bryn said, we still have a lot of work to do, but at least we know how to do it, we know where we have to go to make it work and be effective, and we are taking genuine, and I say huge strides towards accomplishing all of those goals. And that's why I'm so proud to be at McCarthy's and to have this role, to help them in a small way in their Inclusion Now program.
Charlene Theodore:
Well I've said it before on this podcast, we've had Nikki Gershbain on the podcast already and I think we had a discussion about this, but where I think the key to really making that shift is, is the recognition that what these firms are, right? What these legal businesses are in the context of our judicial system in a democratic society. These are not five by eight businesses that are kind of operating and just there to kind of make money and get bought out. These are institutions that long after I'm gone, John you're gone, Bryn you're gone, they still have to continue to operate and provide legal services to the public, to their stakeholders. And really in that way, very much shape the fabric of Canadian society. And so there's a lot of talk about sustainability, but if you really incorporate equality and diversity and inclusion, and you look at the fabric of lawyers that are coming out of law school and you run your business, you're a small or large law firm with a view to those people being the next leaders of the firm to carry it to the next generation, I think that's where you really, really see results.
Charlene Theodore:
And I would like to thank both of you for, as I said, living the principles, especially in this time, John, I think the work that you do is so important and brand new as well. And glad to know that it started at the OBA in our much be live subject committee. I think that's great. That's great. So thanks both of you for joining me today. I learned as I always do so much, and I know our listeners are going to really appreciate the takeaways from this conversation as well.
Bryn Gray:
Thank you.
John Brown:
Well, thank you, Charlene, it was a pleasure meeting you again and discussing these issues with you and thank you for your podcasts. I've listened to a number of them already and you're doing great work. So thank you.
Charlene Theodore:
It begins with understanding. As John and Bryn remind us, that is the root of any genuine commitment to diversity and inclusion, and certainly fundamental to gaining the trust of our indigenous community members and welcoming indigenous students and lawyers to our organizations. So where do you start? Take the path, the accredited online series offered by the Canadian bar association leads you on a journey through indigenous Canada, unlocks important history and demystifies legal issues, cultural traditions, and values, to build understanding and awareness. This is a crucial first step for employees across your organization. Once you gain awareness of the legacy of Canada's relationship with indigenous people, arising from abuses like the Sixties Scoop and residential school system and a legal system that has been used and continues to be used to oppress them, you can appreciate the roots of the mistrust and can begin to constructively bridge that gap through reconciliation efforts. A common refrain on this podcast, but one that always bears repeating don't assume you know best about what others need to feel included. Ask, listen, and act accordingly. Engage with the community if you want to establish the trust and respect that will attract indigenous people to you as clients and to law schools and firms as up and coming lawyers.
Charlene Theodore:
We heard from John and Bryn that McCarthy's engages with indigenous young people, right from high school, where they foster education, mentorship and fun. They continue that engagement and that relationship building through university in law school, where they offer scholarships and awards and right through to the legal workplace where the firm provides opportunities to take on meaningful work and give back to the community. It's not money so much as thoughtfulness and dedicated top-down leadership that will make indigenous students and lawyers feel welcome. Consider the indigenous open house hosted by McCarthy's that featured a smudging and talking circle and signaled a continuum of respect backed by policies and practical support that would empower those who chose to apply their talents there, to be the best lawyers they could be and advance in their careers. Reflect on who you might partner with to become more engaged with the community. McCarthy's partnered with Pro Bono Students Canada, and the Ontario Federation of Indigenous Friendships Centres to assist in the development of the indigenous human rights' program, which is helping them strengthen relationships with indigenous communities and build trust, awareness of rights and comfort around accessing legal help while learning stories and identifying day-to-day instances of systemic discrimination.
Charlene Theodore:
If your firm or organization doesn't have a reconciliation action plan, now is the time to develop one. The Truth and Reconciliation Toolkit is now available on the CBAs website and it has all the resources you need to devise a plan that will ensure concrete progress and accountability if you have commitment and courage to follow through. Once you make diversity and inclusion a true priority that is bolstered by resources and education and permeates everything you do, it will become part of the fabric of your organization, and will draw an incredible talent and support your long-term sustainability. You can find both the Ontario Bar Association and me, your host, Charlene Theodore on LinkedIn and on Twitter. Let's keep this conversation going.